I tried to prove I'm not AI. My aunt wasn't convinced
64 points
1 hour ago
| 7 comments
| bbc.com
| HN
a2128
47 minutes ago
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AI companies love to hype up how AI will provide a great benefit to the economy and transform intellectual labor, but I hardly see any discussion about how much damage it will cause to the economy when you can no longer trust that you're on a video call with an actual person. Maybe the person you're interviewing is actually an AI impersonating someone, or maybe they never existed in the first place. Information found online will also no longer be trustable, footage of some incident somewhere may have been entirely fabricated by AI, and we already experience misleading articles today.

Money will have to be wasted on unnecessary flights to see stuff or meet people in-person instead of video, and the availability of actual information will become more and more limited as the sea of online information gets polluted with crap. It may never be possible to calculate the full extent of the damage in monetary value.

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roflmaostc
22 minutes ago
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Partially agree. However, this problem has existed with scam e-mails since the 90s.

For me the solution is in signed e-mails and signed documents. If the person invites me to a online meeting with a signed e-mail, I trust that person that it's really them.

Same for footage of wars, etc. The journalist taking it basically signs the videos and verifies it's authenticity. It is AI generated, then we would loose trust in that person and wouldn't use their material anymore.

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TheOtherHobbes
49 seconds ago
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How do you prove the signature isn't fake?

Ultimately ID requires either a government ID service, a third party corporate ID service, or some kind of open hybrid - which doesn't exist.

All of those have their issues.

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Forgeties79
15 minutes ago
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Spam emails in the 90’s don’t come remotely close to the operations people can set up by themselves with AI now.
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Forgeties79
16 minutes ago
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> footage of some incident somewhere may have been entirely fabricated by AI,

Or the opposite, where people attempt to get out of trouble by calling real evidence into question by calling it “AI”

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whateverboat
36 minutes ago
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What's the solution apart from an identity providing service?
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a2128
28 minutes ago
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I don't know of a solution. I don't think even identity verification will meaningfully solve this. People will get hacked, or provide their SEO-spamming agent with their own identity, or purposefully post fake videos under their own identity. As it becomes more normal to scan your ID to access random websites, it will also become easier to steal people's identities and the value of identity verification will go down.
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intrasight
2 minutes ago
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People don't get hacked - devices get hacked. So all we need is a better chain of trust between two people. This is not a technology development problem as much as a technology implementation problem. And a political problem
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nathanaldensr
12 minutes ago
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Agreed. The sphere of trust around each of us will shrink back to only those in our physical proximity. Outside of that, no one can be trusted.
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Gigachad
28 minutes ago
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I’m seeing a huge increase in companies requiring in person interviews now. Seems there is a real possibility the internet as we know it will be destroyed.
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dominotw
20 minutes ago
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linkedin is completely destroyed now. There are tons of ai bots there but real humans are now fronts for AI. So you cant even trust content from from ppl you know.

identity serivce is not useful because that person might be a real person but they might just be a pipe to ai like we see on linkedin.

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rkomorn
22 minutes ago
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I think you might be right and I think I'll like some of the consequences and hate some of the others.

More in-person stuff feels like a win to me (and I say this as someone who probably counts as introverted).

Not being able to trust any online interactions anymore? Seems like a new height in what was already a negative.

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adithyassekhar
28 minutes ago
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That's just shifting the problem not solving it.
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forkerenok
1 hour ago
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> At first, my aunt wasn't buying that any AI was involved. [...] There was a long pause. "I was like 90% sure," she said, hesitating. "But that sounded more artificial."

There is a thing about many people. I don't remember the phenomenon's name, if it has one, but it goes like this:

Given enough time to reconsider options, people will be endlessly flip-flopping between them grabbing onto various features over and over in a loop.

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onion2k
52 minutes ago
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Given enough time to reconsider options, people will be endlessly flip-flopping between them grabbing onto various features over and over in a loop.

People will default to believing something is AI if there's no downside to that opinion. It's a defence mechanism. It stops them being 'caught out' or tricked into believing something that's not true.

As soon as there's a potential loss (e.g. missing out on getting rich, not helping a loved one) people will switch off that cynical critical thinking and just fall for AI-driven scams.

This is the downside of being a human being.

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V-2
43 minutes ago
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This phenomenon (or a closely related one?) is recognized and known as Kotov Sydnrome in the context of chess.

A summary, courtesy of chess dot com:

> The name of this "syndrome" comes from GM Alexander Kotov, author of the classic chess book Think Like a Grandmaster. In the book, Kotov described an incorrect yet very common calculation process that often leads players to select a suboptimal or bad move.

> According to Kotov, in positions where the lines are complex and there are numerous candidate moves and variations to calculate, it's easy to make a hasty move. A player in that situation might spend too much time going over two moves and all of their ramifications without finding a favorable ending position. In that process, the player is likely to go back and forth between the two different lines, always coming to the same unsatisfying conclusion—this wastes precious mental energy and time.

> After spending too much time evaluating the first two options, the player gives up the calculation due to time pressure or fatigue and plays a third move without calculating it. According to the author, that sort of move can cause tremendous blunders and cost the game.

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sph
1 hour ago
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Dissonance between what you instinctively believe and what you think the other person wants you to say.

Easy to replicate by asking someone something obvious, like the weather, and when they reply ask “are you sure?” - they won’t be so sure any more (believing it’s a trick question)

If I ask my mother if I’m real, she’ll have a pause because she has never had to entertain such a question, or the possibility her son over the phone is an impostor. Good way to push someone towards paranoia and psychosis.

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catlifeonmars
45 minutes ago
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> Good way to push someone towards paranoia and psychosis.

Interestingly, these are both phenomena where we start to _lose_ the ability to question our thoughts or introspect. These are phenomena of self-confidence rather than of self-doubt.

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Kye
45 minutes ago
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This is the basis of the virtual kidnapping scam/grandparent scam, or panic manipulation more generally. The manufactured urgency keeps them from doubting: the voice on the phone being off is just fear, or a bad connection, for example.

I have personally intervened in one of those when I heard someone reading off a 6 digit number.

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BoppreH
1 hour ago
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Paradox of choice? It's more related to the number of choices and the impact on people's anxiety, but it's close.
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Quekid5
1 hour ago
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Analysis Paralysis?
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vasco
1 hour ago
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There's also another phenomenon which is that whatever the latest idea is, it must be the best. Many people do this mistake and even convince themselves of being right now because "they used to think like that" before.

So at each stage in the loop they are always super convinced of the position.

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psychoslave
56 minutes ago
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Even not being 100% confident, at some point people have to decide what to do.

Actions might include some continuous checks in them, like the famous plan, do, check, act.

Solipsism already tell us that anything beyond current present self experience, existence of anything is uncertain. So, almost everything one have to take for granted to make anything outside metaphysic argument require an act of faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

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hgo
2 minutes ago
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Remember hotornot.com? Soon we can muse at realornot.com
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amelius
5 minutes ago
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> "Six fingers is not an AI thing anymore," Carrasco says. The best AI tools stopped adding extra fingers years ago

How was this solved, actually? More training data, or was there more to it?

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taylodl
1 hour ago
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This is why you need a phrase that you've never shared in a text or on social media that you can use so your family knows it's you. Especially to protect them from scammers pretending to be you.
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krisoft
7 minutes ago
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I bet that a confident scammer is prepared to deal with things like that. They want to put you in a state where you are under time and emotional pressure and your "relative" will have a well practiced response why they can't answer your weird questions.

Imagine your crying grandson who caused a traffic accident in Mexico and the police planted drugs in his car and now he needs money to pay them off. He is in pain and probably has a concussion (explanation why he can't remember what you are asking), the police is hassling him to get off the phone (time pressure, explanation why the quality of the call is terrible). Will you get hung up on some code word he asked you to memorise years ago and you can't even know where it is anymore? And if you bring it up he just starts crying and tells you that you are his last chance to turn his life around. And you remember when he was a wee little kid and he fell and scraped his knee and you comforted him. Just the thought of pressing him on the code makes you feel like a terrible person. Or not. And then the scammer just finds someone more gullible. Theirs is a number game after all.

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kalaksi
53 minutes ago
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Or just find a shared memory/moment not available on the internet when in doubt. I don't think people will be that eager to remember another passphrase.
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bandrami
56 minutes ago
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We have two for our alarm system, a shibboleth and a duress word. You write yours a card and seal the envelope and it's couriered to the operators.
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sam_lowry_
1 hour ago
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A password, you mean?
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theshrike79
1 hour ago
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bandrami
1 hour ago
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In the broad sense of a shared secret, yes
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eesmith
1 hour ago
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The text calls it a codeword:

> The solution the world's leading experts have landed on is one your grandparents could have come up with: codewords. You, your family, business partners and anyone else you communicate with about important subjects need to come up with a secret phrase that no-one else knows you can use in an emergency to verify each other's identities. Think of it like a convoluted form of the multi-factor authentication we all use to login online.

> "My wife and I have a codeword that we use if we ever get an unusual call," Farid says. "We haven't needed to use it yet, but sometimes I ask just to test her to make sure we don't forget it."

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XorNot
1 hour ago
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At this point "spotting AI" is IMO an irrelevant skill. It's something to be aware of but a bunch of the time I can't tell even with an extended look on static images, or if I'm on a phone and scrolling then nothing really tweaks automatically - perceptually the flaws blend exactly as you'd expect them to.

So it's all context clues really - i.e. if the video tracking shot is sort of within the constraints of the models, plays to obvious agendas etc. then I might tweak to go looking for artifacts...but in the propaganda game? That's already game over. And we're all vulnerable to the ground shifting beneath us - i.e. how much power would there be if you had a model which could just slightly exceed those "well known" limitations?

IMO the failure to implement strong distributed cryptography much earlier in the digital age is going to punish us hard for this - i.e. we haven't built a societal convention of verifying and authenticating digital communications amongst each other, and technology has finally caught up that it can fool our wetware now. It was needed well before this - e.g. the rise of the telephone scam and VOIP should've been when we figured out how to make sure people were in the habit of comprehending digital signatures and authentication. It isn't though, and now something much more dangerous is out there.

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Tepix
1 hour ago
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Here's a free business idea:

Perhaps we need tamper proof authenticated cameras in all major cities worldwide that publish a livestream 24/7 and you can then stand in front of them to prove your human existance...

This could be something that notaries around the world could offer as a service.

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DaanDL
47 minutes ago
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Today, we proudly announce, the Meta Rayban 365
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nicbou
1 hour ago
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I heard that in France, they'd use postal office workers to verify people's IDs. It's a brilliant alternative to whatever we're doing in Germany.
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jrjeksjd8d
51 minutes ago
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We couldn't possibly employ people to solve the problem. Don't you know the post office is a waste of money?
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Zinu
1 hour ago
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Isn’t that just like Postident in Germany?
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FinnKuhn
1 hour ago
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What are we doing in Germany?

The options I have seen so far were a) using our digital IDs, which is very handy or b) having a bank verify my identity in person with my ID, which is also pretty good.

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mrlnstk
1 hour ago
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Don't we have PostIdent in Germany? At least I used it to open my bank account.
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exitb
1 hour ago
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Or in general, a way to digitally sign a tamper-free video recoding made with a camera from a reputable manufacturer. Maybe a regular iPhone already has enough integrity checks and security contexts to achieve this.
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monster_truck
51 minutes ago
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How exactly would this make money
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mkl
2 minutes ago
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Instead of having it constantly running, you have to pay to turn it on for a couple of minutes.
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UqWBcuFx6NV4r
1 hour ago
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The bus that couldn’t slow down.
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delichon
56 minutes ago
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It sounds like you're talking about the movie Speed with Elvis Presley and Aubrey Hepburn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtxoM0l0Agg

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tjpnz
1 hour ago
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We used to have something similar in NZ. Got removed eventually because of flashing.
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