The poor device user would be faced with a choice of losing their job and being held criminally liable for breaching their company's systems, or going to jail in Hong Kong.
Yes, it can be a criminal offence. But the maximum tariff for this under RIPA 2000 is five years. If it’s not about nation security or CSAM, it’s two.
(Incidentally, the USA is a real outlier in this topic)
I'm not even sure how much practical difference there is between 5 and indefinite in practice, 5 years is a long time. I imagine it is pretty life-destroying. Especially for the crime of having something on your phone that you want to keep private.
> If it’s not about nation security or CSAM, it’s two.
I am sure we all get what you mean, but there is a comic interpretation in vaguely-Soviet style here where if someone hasn't done anything wrong they only get 2 years. I'm going to spend some time this weekend making sure my encryption is plausibly deniable where possible.
Before a judge grants the notice, they must be satisfied that:
The key to the protected information is in the possession of the person given notice. Disclosure is necessary in the interest of national security, in preventing or detecting crime or in the interests of the economic wellbeing of the UK. Disclosure is proportionate. If the protected information cannot be obtained by reasonable means.
I'm sure China could find some judges to rule in the name of national security if it would give everyone warm fuzzies.
Judicial checks and balances only function when they're independent of the executive and parliament
I'm sure there's some people here working on mobile operating systems, might be worth considering?
Or even worse, you did give them the real password, but because your phone supports the feature and your profile is kind of barren, they don't believe you. Now you are in a very bad lose-lose situation.
So when they ask for the real profile it shows in the next unlock a profile that makes it very clear you have a deeply embarrassing ASMR addiction.
It could cross reference your local laws to ensure to not spill the beans on something locally illegal.
https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/private-sp...
I'm hard pressed to find any reason for any citizen to be compelled to share their secrets with the police because the police had "suspicions".
The 4th and 5th are paramount for a free society.
You mean wrench? https://xkcd.com/538/
???
Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them. It is an issue for UK, though.
This is not totally true. It is also a US issue: CBP has been asking for passwords (or to unlock the device) for phones and computers for more than a year now. Last year, multiple people got turned around because they disagreed with US policies and political views that differ from those of the US's current president.
CBP is also asking, not compelling. You don't have to give them your password. If you don't, and you're a foreigner, you may be turned away. If you're a citizen, and I remember correctly, they can seize your device for up to two days if they want.
But they're not going to put you in prison for refusing like the U.K. and Hong Kong will.
(If you're not a citizen, all bets are off)
And also actually per law. And yes, being forced to give out passwords and make profiles public as a rputine thing is much worst then being forced to give out password when there is actual warrant.
I've contacted multiple lawyers and the answer got was they've tried cases like these before and they always lose so they don't take them anymore. Though this was pre-Trump, now it's suddenly in vogue to take up longshot border or immigration cases.
In the U.K. or Hong Kong, "justice" would entail prison.
Rules at the border tend to be pretty restrictive almost everywhere. You can literally get in trouble for having a sandwich in your bag. I'd wager Hong Kong border control was also empowered to request phone passwords and turn away refusers long before this change.
It’s not even good for business. Business laptops and phones have trade secrets to conduct regular company activities.
Normalizing the surveillance dystopia we live in ON HN is beyond my understanding.
so they were not in US technically?
Under the present administration I wouldn't be surprised if for example ICE tried the $5 wrench method.
if i didn't need any of those apps then sure, but unfortunately there is no way around these apps if i want to keep in touch with certain people that are important to me.
If those people won’t allow you to be offline from time to time and aren’t willing to switch communication methods as an alternative, maybe it’s not a symmetrical relationship.
Or use something like Beeper (works on Linux): https://www.beeper.com/
Unfortunately, it's pretty common to only have a smartphone as your sole compute device, and increasingly onerous not to own one at all.
Yes, and I think this unfortunately demands a grey area. I'm starting to treat my smartphone more like a work device, and there are a few things I do on it:
- My work's authenticator app is there.
- Unfortunately Signal is tied to smartphone usage.
- Practically speaking, people will expect to be able to send you text messages.
- It's still useful for taking pictures.
- My banking app is on there.
Outside of rare occasions, that's really all I use my phone for. I don't carry it around the house. If I go somewhere with my wife, I don't even bring my phone most of the time. I'm "required" to have it, but in principle it's not even mine. It shouldn't be trusted or enjoyed.
Now we just have to wait N years for Android and iOS to get approval from the government to build something similar, that they can market yet somehow screw up enough to not actually help.
>China makes you give phone passwords, China makes Apple give user data
>The US wiretaps 1 person
"OMG THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!"
We forget because a Republikan is in charge how good we have it in the west. We forget how bad it is elsewhere.
Roleplaying inability to read will never not be funny
UK: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/law-requiring-dis...
France: https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/news/french-court-rules-...
China: Police can search phones of dissidents, and jail them for life for criticising the Party.
You: Europe is worse than China (or will be really soon I promise).
Disingenuous.
Speaking of being disingenuous, when you say "Police can search phones to counteract human traffickers", did you think critically about that at all before writing it? Given one of the stated justifications is "preventing terrorism", and the UK has been illegally arresting Palestine Action supporters as terrorists for over a year, this seems a little naive at least.
That would be nonsensical. If you have anti-Xi propaganda on your phone (which could be the reasons you mention), you have nothing to fear in Europe or in the US and a lot to fear in China.
The US is actually worse than both China and Europe because it's 18th century amendments protect human traffickers. Although they do what they can to not have to adhere to those, especially in border control.
> What about Palestine Action...
I'll limit myself to the LARP about "oppressive Europe invigilating your phone".
I've spent this summer 3 weeks in China, used 2 VPNs, both of them worked fine (1 cost less than dollar, the other 4-5 dollars), so did my wife, mother and her husband, guess how many times someone cared about checking our phone.
The biggest issue was when we travelled into Beijing province where there are mo strict border checks and police found out we didn't register our accommodation (at wife's family), the scary horrible policemen then locked us for weeks and deport us from country... No, seriously, that would more likely happen in US than in China, in China they just told us to register after the weekend at local police station and let us continue into province to check Great wall, policemen in police station could not care less and be more laid back about it.
Maybe visit some other countries to have actual experiences instead spreading everywhere your feelings about other countries based on some propaganda.
It's not the tourists, it's the local dissidents that have something to fear. Or maybe try going there as a tourist, and putting up anti-party posters.
American: In America, we have freedom of speech.
USSRian: What's that?
American: I can stand in front of the White House and yell "Reagan is a moron!" and nothing will happen to me.
USSRian: Well, we have that in USSR too.
American: Really?
USSRian: Yes, of course! I go stand in the center of the Red Square and yell "Reagan is a moron" and nothing will happen to me.
That's great but of exactly zero help if you're trying to travel to the US and CBP (or ICE) are staring you down. Even if they don't gulag you, they can always just reject entry for any non-citizen (and these days even some citizens it seems.)
The constitution doesn't say shooting citizens is illegal, right?
At least 225 judges have ruled in more than 700 cases that the administration's mandatory immigration detention policy likely violates the right to due process[1] The Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause generally requires those having federal funds cut off to receive notice and an opportunity for a hearing, which was not provided in many of DOGE's spending freezes[2]
1. https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal...
2. https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/many-trump-admi...