Employers use your personal data to figure out the lowest salary you'll accept
96 points
2 hours ago
| 7 comments
| marketwatch.com
| HN
anonymars
2 hours ago
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One (more) thing to opt out of:

Freeze Your Data - The Work Number https://employees.theworknumber.com/employee-data-freeze

As I understand it, payroll whores your salary out to Equifax*, who then pimps it to others

* Yeah, that one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Equifax_data_breach

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xvxvx
23 minutes ago
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I worked for Equifax many moons ago. They had a problem with people taking jobs there that no one else wanted, solely to gain access to their systems and reset their own credit scores. And, for some reason, they couldn’t roll it back once found out. Great company.
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lateforwork
1 hour ago
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No they sell it directly: https://theworknumber.com/solutions/industries/pre-employmen...

The Work Number is in fact Equifax.

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laweijfmvo
2 hours ago
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I hate that I have to opt out of this stuff that I never signed up for and never would have. I filed the request to freeze, and see that it will require me uploading many more pieces of data to prove identity and address. Disgusting.
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roenxi
2 hours ago
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I'm not seeing how this matters, they were already doing that - the market is a big auction to work out the overlap between lowest salary employees will work for and the highest salary employers will offer. In that process employees also use data to figure out the highest salary that will be offered. The thing forcing employers to pay the salary they do is that if they offer less someone else will gazump them for the employee's time. It has nothing to do with the circumstances of the employees lifestyle. The lifestyle adjusts to the salary.
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darth_avocado
1 minute ago
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> the overlap between lowest salary employees will work for and the highest salary employers will offer

There is still an element of unknown because both parties do not know each others numbers, which allows employees to still negotiate. You are now talking about information asymmetry where the party with the information will now have all the bargaining power.

When I went from working a $150K job to getting offers from Meta at $300K, the initial number they offered was $250K, and we worked upwards. I absolutely would’ve taken the job even if they offered $200K and not negotiated. But they did, based on information asymmetry. Now imagine a world where meta knows exactly how much I make and all the other information about me. I’d probably get a minor bump over my previous salary.

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nothercastle
21 minutes ago
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This allows all sorts of normally illegal discrimination via ai pass through. Never hire pregnant women, sick people or employees over 30 again. Target for race and religion whatever you want. Basically everything that’s scary about chinas social credit score except private run with zero accountability.
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canpan
1 hour ago
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I wonder if the winning game becomes your own boss and tiny companies.

I want to do the jump, but lack of courage, good ideas, sales skills and a very good salary still holding me back (open for suggestions). But if the very good salary would go away, the scales tip instantly.

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Ferret7446
22 minutes ago
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That was always the "winning game". Only problem is that's a lot of work. The more things change, the more they stay the same; if you want more money, work harder. People who don't want to work harder complain that other people make more money because they either don't understand or are in denial about the amount of work the people they envy put in.

Yes there are exceptions. No pointing out exceptions won't help you, though it might make you temporarily feel better about yourself.

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jimbokun
25 minutes ago
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What you describe is the reason the web site you posted it on exists.
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tombert
24 minutes ago
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I've considered it myself; I don't want to make a business doing contract work again, because I did not enjoy that.

If I were to start my own business it would have to be a product. I have plenty of interesting projects that I work on in my free time, but I'm not sure any of them are monetizable, or at least not monetizable enough for a venture capitalist to throw money at me (especially since most of them do not involve AI). I could probably think of something that could be monetizable if I really tried but if I don't actually enjoy the work I'm doing on the side for fun then I'm probably not going to do a particularly good job on it.

Though even if I did have some brilliant project that I could sell, I have no idea how to go about finding VC investors. And even if I knew how to find these investors, I think I would ultimately be too afraid to actually commit to it.

Increasingly it's seeming that I will probably not be worth billions of dollars in my lifetime, for no other reasons than I'm too much of a coward and I'm too discriminating with what I actually work on. Sometimes it depresses me to think about it, but hard to feel too sad for myself when I still have a high salary job that involves me staring at a computer screen all day.

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peyton
1 hour ago
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Wait til you find out what customers do to figure out the lowest. There’s a little more accountability.
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nout
1 hour ago
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And our AIs can give us insight into what is the highest salary that the given company can offer.
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jmyeet
1 hour ago
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Hyperindividualism is a mental health disorder.

I say this because any time you bring up the idea of collective action, collective bargaining or, well, collective anything, you'll get a bunch of comments from Ameribrains who say "I don't want my salary dragged down by other people" or "I can negotiate my own salary" even though there is a *massive power imbalance.

If the company doesn't employ you or has to pay even 10% more it doesn't really matter either way for 99% of people. You are replaceable. Even if you think you aren't, you are.

But if you don't have a job in the US, that's your house, school for your children, food, health insurance and your car. All of those things depend on you having that job.

For you this is literally life or death. For the company not only is it not, but they have every resource in the book. They can pit you against other candidates. They can suppress your wages with layoffs or even just the threat of layoffs. They're going to do things like this to algorithmically lower your salary.

And you think you can compete with that? You can't. You may think you can but you can't. They're using the hybris of the human psyche against you. Everybody thinks they're above average. Everybody thinks they can text and drive. At least 95% of people can't.

In a weird way this is kind of the same thing as dynamic pricing. Dyanamic pricing is using algorithms to see how much you'll pay. Well I guess this is the other side of the coin: let's see how little you'll take. The goal of all these systems, and probably the true "value" of AI, is to suppress your real wages.

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farfatched
9 minutes ago
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Is it so bad if different countries can have different values?
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jmogly
19 minutes ago
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100% agree and this will be impossible to explain to the largely “ameribrained” crowd on HN, we are facing pathological capitalism. It’s consolidated, it’s expensive, it’s immoral. We need to stop this temporarlily embarassed billionare crap and band together to beat these companies back down to a competitive, costumer serving, world enhancing not destroying size.
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salawat
29 minutes ago
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Well said. Disregard the Philistines. Clearly not worth the effort to reach anyway. Greatly appreciated the insight. Even the Ameribrain comment was actually warranted. Since the 70's, there's been a concerted effort by employers to do everything possible to discredit Unionization in the United States, in spite of the fact that during it's heyday, unionization was responsible for netting workers a much greater share of the pie than has been the case post '71. If people would group up, they'd find themselves in a far less disadvantaged position at the negotiating table.
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RobRivera
59 minutes ago
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>Ameribrains.

If you want someone to read everything you have to write, abstain from triteness like namecalling.

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pasquinelli
26 seconds ago
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you're being a bit much.
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rootusrootus
45 minutes ago
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It saved me the trouble of reading the rest of their comment, so there’s that.
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jmogly
33 minutes ago
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Toughen up a bit, he’s right.
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WalterBright
1 hour ago
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When I apply for a job, I use data to figure out the highest salary the company will accept.
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WalterBright
1 hour ago
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The internet has information on what salaries a company pays. One would be foolish to not look it up before negotiating compensation.
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scotty79
51 minutes ago
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People tend to think that income taxes lower your salary. While in practice employers know exactly for how little money (in hand) you are willing to work and in absence of income taxes would just pay this much less so that your money in hand is the same.

As an employee you should fight for income taxes to be as high as possible since they are neutral for you and might fund useful things for all. When left in the pocket of your employer they just become their takeaway. Employers won't spend it on improving the company if they don't have to. And the only things that force them to spend money in a predictable manner is regulation and markey opportunity to earn more. When they have those needs they mostly do it with credit anyways.

Conversely as an employer you should advocate for lowest income taxes possible for your workers.

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rahimnathwani
38 minutes ago
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You're suggesting that 100% of the income tax burden is shifted from employees to employers.

The incidence of taxation (which party bears the burden of the tax, irrespective of who 'pays' it) is widely studied. As it relates to payroll taxes (paid by the employer) and income taxes (paid by the employee) most research finds that employees bear most (but not all) of the burden. This is the opposite of your claim.

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scotty79
19 minutes ago
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It's not shifted. It's just there. It was never on the employees. Employees don't have their own money to tax. Employees money is employers money. That's its source.

Employees get taxed when they spend money by being consumers. Sales taxes and VAT are their tax burden. But income taxes of the employees are the burden of the employer. It's employer who has to fork that money because otherwise he wouldn't be able to pay enough so that the employee agrees to work.

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iugtmkbdfil834
27 minutes ago
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It has to be Sunday, because I don't that kinda of argument on a regular work day. It is almost 4chan level argument that simply does not make sense, but is somehow presented as if it was a simple matter of fact. Please tell me that you were joking and I was simply not in on it.
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scotty79
13 minutes ago
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Just imagine what would happen if income taxes for employees were reduced to zero. If you think employees would have that much more money you don't think straight. Employers don't pay workers as much as they can. They pay them as little as they can and that mostly doesn't change with the tax rate.

That's all you need to know to understand the actual mechanics in presence of misleading labels. Nominally income tax (of employees) is just a tax on purchase of labor.

Another angle you could use to understand this is that reduction of income tax (for bottom 90% of earners) promotes employment. Why is that? Beacuse it makes the labor cheaper.

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oefrha
5 minutes ago
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What would happen if you reduce income tax to zero is sole proprietors, freelancers, etc. suddenly have a huge advantage over employees, especially higher up the income taxes brackets. Speaking as someone who freelanced for a major part of my career and paid my share.
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