Microsoft is employing dark patterns to goad users into paying for storage?
186 points
3 hours ago
| 22 comments
| lzon.ca
| HN
rconti
1 minute ago
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Office in the Mac is AWFUL about this.

By default, it saves to a OneDrive you never asked for and can never find. You can't permanently change the location of your saved documents-- just change it once, and the setting stays "forever", maybe, until a software update fucks it up for you again.

Auto-save is disabled if you're not using OneDrive.

Nobody asked for OneDrive. It makes it a goddamned nightmare to find your files. I was trying to make it easy for my partner to save their files to the same location every time, make it easy to find in the Finder, make it easy for mailing attachments. No such luck.

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kn100
2 hours ago
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I got caught out by exactly this, and I'm not exactly tech illiterate. what made it even more annoying is by the time I'd realised what had happened, it was practically impossible to get the files back out of OneDrive (since I decided that this was enough Windows for me, and went back to Linux), since the webui does NOT handle downloading lots of small files well, and you just end up getting a partially complete zip file. I gave up in the end as nothing in there was particularly important. This is an incredibly annoying default.
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cromka
1 hour ago
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I had same exact experience with macOS and iCloud. macOS by default enables offloading Documents to cloud, transparently. Problem is if you try to get those files back to store them offline, it gets very tricky very quickly with ambiguous verbiage and lengthy process that you never actually know status of. I ended up losing some files as a result, which came as a total shock to me. I was already in the process of moving back to Linux (hence downloading of the Documents) and this was final straw.
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kn100
2 hours ago
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Oh and another fun thing! I eventually just emptied the OneDrive so Microsoft would stop bothering me. This was maybe six months ago or so. Microsoft confirms I am storing nothing there. Just a week or two ago I got yet another email begging for money because my OneDrive was apparently full. It was a genuine email, I went as far as checking the headers for SPF/DKIM. When I signed into onedrive, still empty!
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wallstop
23 minutes ago
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Anecdata, they might have had a system error. My Microsoft account that I use the free tier OneDrive on had the same email sent (you're over x% full, consider upgrading!). I suspected everything you did - eventually I logged in after verifying the email - nope, 5% usage or so.

I then went and deleted more stuff, but my money would be on a reporting glitch than a malicious money campaign.

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antonvs
1 hour ago
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I suppose if you’re not paying them, your storage limit is zero, so if you have zero bytes there you’ve reached max capacity.
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lumiukko
2 hours ago
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I wouldn't use the webui for that. Getting rid of onedrive in favor for a self-hosted nextcloud, I used the native client to download all the files on the machine and then moved them out. This also removed them from onedrive after acknowledging the "A lot of files have been deleted from your onedrive account" warning. Actually deleting the onedrive application was also not as straight-forward as some other users may want you to believe. Even now, I'm not sure it won't just pop-up one day once again.
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doubled112
1 hour ago
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I wonder if rclone would have behaved any better than the web UI.
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antonkochubey
1 hour ago
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rclone usually works much better for all those cloud storages with terrible UIs/native clients
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Morromist
2 hours ago
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I too have seen onedrive do this to people who aren't super-heavy computer users. Onedrive is a menace.
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fhn
2 hours ago
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you mean Microsoft is a menace. Microsoft has been tricking generations of people into using OneDrive. I hope nobody is dumb enough to pay for it and I'd create a ton of fake emails and fill it up with junk.
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ryandrake
2 hours ago
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rcxdude
37 minutes ago
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What's also irritating is that onedrive will use some kind of 'smart' caching system to delete the local copy of a file. Which is all fine and dandy until you need said file when you don't have an internet connection. Explaining this to users is very difficult, they just know that something broke and usually when it was very important.

(OK, what's even more stupid is IT departments who don't understand that onedrive has any problems at all, and insist on it and refuse to set up an actual backup system for user devices because 'onedrive will back everything up')

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geophile
2 hours ago
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From perusing reddit, I see some Windows users tempted to consider Linux, often because of Windows 11. But then, many of them won't move because: it doesn't work just like Windows; there is some Windows application they must have, or maybe they just don't want to learn the alternatives. Or they use word/excel/powerpoint and have to interact with others who do also.

The brainwashing, high tolerance for pain and misery (and expense!), and lock-in makes it close to impossible for ordinary computer users to escape.

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raincole
1 hour ago
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Call it brainwashing or whatever. But the reality is that even one single popular app not working out of box is enough barrier preventing people from switching.

I've tried to convince people to use Linux. The conversation usually ended when they realize Photoshop isn't natively support Linux. And after many attempts, I ended up being converted to Windows + WSL.

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p_ing
1 hour ago
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> The brainwashing, high tolerance for pain and misery (and expense!), and lock-in makes it close to impossible for ordinary computer users to escape.

Or opposite of the house, the arrogance and presumption.

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reddalo
1 hour ago
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Linux Mint is super easy to use. I've personally battle tested it with my elder parents.

Given all the nagware present in Windows 11, I'd even say Linux Mint is easier than Windows.

The most difficult part is probably the installation itself.

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scorpionfeet
1 hour ago
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Not if you are coming from windows and are not a tech nerd. I don’t want to end up being tech support for some non techie I coerced into Linux. It is nowhere near as seamless as zealots like to believe. Been having this discussion since 1997.
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inetknght
1 hour ago
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> It is nowhere near as seamless as zealots like to believe.

Perhaps not. But it's still more seamless than Windows these days. Microsoft keeps lowering the bar.

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reddalo
1 hour ago
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Have you actually tried a modern distro like Linux Mint?

Seriously, you don't even need to touch the terminal, everything is neatly organized in a single control panel (unlike the messy >2 control panels situation of Windows).

You can easily install all the applications you want; even games thanks to Steam and Proton.

It's easy to use, there are no ads, no preinstalled adware, no nagware, everything is fast and clean.

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esseph
48 minutes ago
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> modern distro

Let them cook...

> Linux Mint

Oh. :(

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4k0hz
13 minutes ago
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Modern != brand new shiny hipster thing. Unless you're a devotee of rolling release or unconvential things like Nix, Mint is not obsolete.
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surgical_fire
56 minutes ago
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I don't know the last time you tried - I made numerous attempts to migrate to Linux since 2003, until I finally made it for good in 2022.

Modern beginner friendly distros are genuinely more user friendly than Windows nowadays.

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bsder
2 hours ago
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> maybe they just don't want to learn the alternatives. Or they use word/excel/powerpoint and have to interact with others who do also.

If they're on Office 365, they could be on Linux.

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liendolucas
2 hours ago
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From the WinUtil screenshots presented in the article I'm absolutely shocked about all the things that you presumably want to turn off or delete to have a "clean" Windows (to some extent if that's possible at all). It's also ridiculous that you need an external tool to easily disable/remove/uninstall every single thing you don't want .

I haven't used Windows since many many years ago and the few times I sit down to interact with someone else's computer I suffer so much that after a few seconds I simply give up, I can't stand anything about it.

If someone were to use Windows, besides WinUtil, are there a set of recommended open source scripts to clean up all the shit out of a fresh Windows installation?

Just to be aware in case of emergency or extreme need...

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Esn024
1 hour ago
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Winhance for removing things like OneDrive and the option to KEEP them removed even if a future Windows Update tries to reinstall them. You can also save your configuration to easily get all your preferences back on a fresh Windows install. I use this instead of WinUtil (which I haven't tried yet... is there any way in which it is better?).

Windhawk for quality of life improvements if you don't like some of Windows's defaults. For example, I use it to have two rows on my taskbar and smaller icons (which was disabled in Windows 11), always open Classic Notepad instead of the new one (it loads much faster), and add multi-step "undo" to the Classic Notepad (the only thing I didn't like about it), among other things.

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II2II
53 minutes ago
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And that is just a fraction of what WinUtil does ...

It has been a while since I booted Windows, but I am fairly certain you can still circumvent the OneDrive nonsense (which is what the article is about) by setting up a local account. There are likely simpler ways, since Windows still has the concept of local file storage. That doesn't excuse the dark patterns, but it does highlight that we sometimes over complicate solutions.

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ikr678
39 minutes ago
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They made it very difficult to create local accounts on win11.
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BLKNSLVR
1 hour ago
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It was the need to do increasingly more post-setup configuration with each iteration of Windows after Win7 that finally pushed me to using Linux as my daily driver a few years ago. Especially when a few of these settings would get switched back to defaults after a Windows Update.

These days, the amount of background services that Windows runs just makes it feel as if Windows itself is increasingly malware. You don't need a virus present for modern day machines, with massive compute resources, to be bogged down and running like a 486 back in the day.

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0x_rs
6 minutes ago
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Google Photos does the same thing, aggressively prompting the user endlessly until they give in. A solution to that is disabling the malicious application and installing Google's Gallery app instead, that possesses no ransomware capability from what I've last heard of it. Make no mistake: Google and Microsoft know very well this behaviour will lead to people subscribing to services they have, for the most part, no use for. It is therefore explicitly by design, deceiving tech-illiterate people threatening to delete files they never meant to upload.
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jmcphers
2 hours ago
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Google is no better. My family mostly uses iPhones, and on a big extended family vacation, I suggested we use Google Photos to create a shared album to document the trip. Everyone installed the Google Photos app on their iPhone so they could contribute... which resulted in all of them having their email accounts disabled.

What happened? Google Photos on the iPhone backs up all your photos by default, and, like Microsoft, Google "shares storage" between email and photos. The minute Google Photos was installed, it started backing up photos until the paltry free tier was reached, at which point it disabled the associated gmail account since it was "out of storage".

Talk about an anti-pattern; I spent a good chunk of time on that trip helping people get their storage back so they could send email again.

I'll never recommend Google Photos to anyone ever again.

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tredre3
1 hour ago
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> The minute Google Photos was installed, it started backing up photos

Just to be clear: It will ask you before doing it.

If you refuse, it will ask you again and again and again. Sometimes with a slightly different prompt. Until you accidentally say yes.

But it does ask you.

Even though I agree with your overall conclusion that people should avoid google photos, this moment should also be a learning experience for your family to be more careful what they agree to. Popup fatigue is insidious, we all need to remain vigilant!

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fg137
9 minutes ago
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To be fair, Google sends out multiple emails notifying that you won't receive new emails unless you upgrade or clear things out. If they read their emails even somewhat regularly -- which I acknowledge isn't a given for many people -- they'd know what's coming.
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debugnik
2 hours ago
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> it started backing up photos until the paltry free tier was reached

How could everyone fill their 15 GiB quota when IIRC by default it only backups the camera roll with lossy compression? Also I've never heard of accounts getting disabled for filling the quota.

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dijit
1 hour ago
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FYI I am notoriously bad at taking photos (as is constantly explained to me by family and my partner) and my Phone has 130GiB of Photos and Videos on it as we speak.
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pimlottc
1 hour ago
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Disabled in the sense that you can no longer receive email (which for many is the primary purpose for a Google account), not that you can’t login.
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devindotcom
2 hours ago
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Same thing happened to me and it did not default to lossy. Days later I got the "you will stop receiving email soon" warning in Gmail.
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devindotcom
2 hours ago
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Happened to me too, almost identically. Clearly this is a pattern across the major consumer cloud app/service providers.
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dwayne_dibley
2 hours ago
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Drives me insane that to see my existing Google library and shared albums I must allow Google photos access to my phones photos - at which point it turns auto back on.
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bsder
2 hours ago
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Apple does the same thing with iCloud. I had to go through a lot of hoops to get my wife's photos back down locally on the computer.
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OptionOfT
1 hour ago
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Apple also by default backs up your apps to the cloud.

But it backs up the WHOLE package / folder / whatever terminology they use, including cached and redownloadable data. So if you have a game that has 10GB of cached data, it WILL upload that. Edge for me was >3GB.

And then they have the following user-hostile 'features':

    1. They offer a paltry 5GB. Hasn't changed since inception, but app sizes have ... tripped? I have 2GB of health data now. 
    2. They don't tell you that you're backing up data that can be retrieved elsewhere.
    3. The popup when storage is full shows only 'buy more' or ignore (no link/mention to disable individual app like described above)
    4. No way to backup to a NAS
    5. No way to backup to a computer automatically. You have to provide you passcode every time.
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kccqzy
1 hour ago
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The Apple backup strategy is purposefully broken. I’m already paying for 50GB of iCloud and it often claims that it cannot backup my iPhone despite having multiple gigabytes free. It turns that that during the backup process it operates on a file level, so if you happen to have a large file it will require both copies of the file to fit within your storage limit before the backup can complete. And guess what, several third party apps I use store all their data in a single multi-gigabyte SQLite database that’s written to every day.

As for cached and downloadable data, I have long ago turned off backups for many apps where the data is stored on a server anyways. Backing up these apps never makes any sense.

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antonkochubey
1 hour ago
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That's on app developers (I suspect mobile game developers are not the most competent of the bunch). My entire iPhone's backup is 4.6 GB, and my YouTube downloaded videos alone are way more than that.
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antisthenes
2 hours ago
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It also doesn't help that Google's free tier (15GB) is laughably small in 2026.

HDD capacity and Google's profits grew many-fold since that was last increased (in 2012-ish?).

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tredre3
54 minutes ago
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It is small, but if you look at their competition it's still competitive.

Only Mega offers more for free (20GB).

Microsoft offers 5GB.

Ente.io offers 10GB.

Proton.io offers 2GB (if you jump through some time-limited hoops, most of which defeats the purpose of using a privacy cloud, you get a whooping 5GB free instead)

Filen.io offers 10GB, but you can get 30GB if you do a similar dance to proton and spam your referral code everywhere.

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eterm
1 hour ago
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It does seem ridiculous that over 20 years ago, gmail was advertised with a real-time allowance ticking away increasing, which started at an incredibly generous 1GB allowance and you could watch it tick up in real time faster than you could fill it with mail.

People designed "gmail-as-storage" apps to take advantage of this.

20 years later and we get a pathetic 15GB for mail, photos and everything else combined.

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Terr_
1 hour ago
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TBF that's a little bit apples-to-orchards, since publicly routed e-mails have certain expectable size/frequency characteristics compared to, say, all the videos someone possesses.
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asdefghyk
2 hours ago
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I'm surprised their has not been a class action here, about how ( unskilled , mainly ) people are tricked? / Forced ? into using cloud storage.
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fhn
2 hours ago
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I'm all for suing MS but you're suggesting suing because of personal ignorance? The forced use of email for setup is probably sue worthy but I'd rather people just stop using MS.
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rcxdude
33 minutes ago
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I talk to a lot of users who are not utterly incompetent with computers but really don't want to focus on them any more than they have to. Almost all of them have enabled this kind of thing without understanding it at all because microsoft pops up nags for this kind of thing constantly and specifically designs them so that the easiest way to get them out of the way is to enable whatever thing they want you to enable (at which point, they will never mention it again, precisely the opposite, I would suggest, that you should do when you have fundamentally changed how the user's files are stored, and in stark contrast to if you refuse, which will result in you being nagged again and again).
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pixl97
1 hour ago
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>but you're suggesting suing because of personal ignorance

Yes, because companies design products with dark patterns to ensnare users, it's not uncommon for people to win these kind of lawsuit.

> I'd rather people just stop using MS.

Ah yes, just like we're all going to stop using Apple and Google too. How about we have organizations that have teeth and protect the consumer

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brailsafe
33 minutes ago
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Apple also does this with iCloud storage and it's maddening, not easy to reconcile, and threatening to turn off.
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tim-tday
40 minutes ago
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If you want to experience Microsoft dark patterns just install a fresh copy of windows. Last a checked there were seven adversarial prompts where they try to trick you into doing something they want but you don’t. Send us your usage data! (No) Sign in with an online account (I want a local account) And on and on.

Fuck those guys.

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carodgers
1 hour ago
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I don't use Windows at home. What happens if you don't have Outlook but your personal local files still fill up OneDrive storage? Do you get error messages that files aren't being backed up? Are you unable to save files?
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to11mtm
1 hour ago
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I long ago learned to pay the 2$ a month or whatever the hell to just have 1TB of storage and remember to keep my user account drive small enough where I never hit the amount.
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aucisson_masque
1 hour ago
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> Microsoft is actively hostile towards its users.

No shit.

And I see some of the same pattern with Apple now, for instance by default files on iOS get downloaded to the iCloud. And phone get backed up too, same as photos. It just happens that the free 5gb of iCloud storage is slightly not enough for all this shit, and you quickly get a pop up showing you that you must purchase an iCloud subscription.

I know that work because my mother almost fall for it.

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albedoa
17 minutes ago
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This is some real title gore, and I don't know who is to blame. As it appears:

> Microsoft is employing dark patterns to goad users into paying for storage?

That Microsoft is employing dark patterns is neither surprising nor a question. Can you explain this gross departure from the actual title jpmitchell[1]? Here is the original for reference:

> How Microsoft abuses its users

This is much more interesting and accurate.

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jpmitchell

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TheOtherHobbes
2 hours ago
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I had a similar issue. I ended my O365 subscription. Outlook kept complaining I had exceeded my free storage, which surprised me because I've never used OneDrive for anything, and my email storage was well under the limit.

I deleted a ton of useless emails anyway, but that didn't fix the problem. Somehow I had more than 25 gigs of space being used on a cloud system I'd never used, tied to an email account which supposedly needed less than 500 Mb of storage.

Eventually after a lot of searching I discovered the magic page that gave me direct access to OneDrive's actual storage - which was not, somehow, the page that gave access to the files.

OneDrive was storing a lot of attachments, and deleting emails and clearing the trash didn't delete them.

Or something like that. Whatever the magic words were, I did eventually find them and fix the problem.

But it took a while, I had to resubscribe for free for a month to make it happen, there was a lot of confusing side information online suggesting I should open a ticket (good luck with that on a consumer account) and generally it Just Didn't Work.

I can imagine people resubscribing for another year just to make it all go away.

This has been my lifelong experience of Microsoft - shockingly poor, contemptuous, or downright stupid interface design, Kafka-esque indifference to the user experience, and constant unwanted friction and complication, around a suite of core consumer products that are mediocre to start with.

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asdefghyk
2 hours ago
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My Suspicion - Microsoft would have put lots effort into their cloud storage trickery - it would be an enormous revenue item . ....
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stogot
55 minutes ago
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My tech illiterate family members fell for this Microsoft dark pattern. Revolting
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ImPostingOnHN
2 hours ago
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This is part of a broader, financialization-related push across the entire economy to convert one-time-purchase revenue into steady, predictable, ratchet-able recurring revenue.

As an added bonus for them, they can sell laptops with less storage (= fewer chips in this tight market) with the expectation that the customer will store everything in the cloud, with plenty of overage fees.

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Bratmon
2 hours ago
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Email scammers often make their initial emails intentionally full of red flags to automatically filter out anyone smart enough to avoid the scam, and leave them with a pool of people willing to accept any amount of scummyness and abuse.

Windows is the exact same thing but for operating systems. If you're still using it in 2026, it's because you want to be a mark.

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dijit
2 hours ago
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99% of people don't choose their OS.

They buy "a laptop" and it has an OS on it.

Or they go to work and are provided "a computer" and have very little say (or ability to change) what it's running, even if they had the impetus, know-how and knowledge that other things even exist.. you're always running the risk that things will break for you.

This is the moat Windows has. Not Games like people think, that's a stronghold for sure, but Gamers are inconsequential when compared to the amount of business computers and consumer systems people buy.

Chromebooks were the answer for most consumers, but damn, that business moat is basically damn-near unkillable, especially in Scandinavia. (I'm currently subject to it myself).

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fl4regun
2 hours ago
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For real, the tools at my workplace either all work on linux already, or we just do most of our work on AWS linux VMs over VNC anyways, but our laptops are all windows. I'd rather have debian or fedora or whatever on my laptop but IT doesn't care, and they already have everything set up on windows. My laptop doesn't even matter, it basically only needs access to a web browser and it would be fine.

The gaming moat is ever shrinking, at this point it's really only for games that explicitly choose not to support linux (very few in number), or have decided that kernel based anti cheat is the ONLY one worth using (few in number but some can be quite popular). Single player games have been working great for me for many years now, but I don't play stuff like apex legends, league, valorant etc.

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Bratmon
2 hours ago
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Exactly! They've gotten very good at mark-identification over the years.
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jjtheblunt
2 hours ago
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if using windows in 2026, it might be that you are leveraging the device driver maturity while running your favorite Linux in WSL2.
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_wire_
1 hour ago
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Anytime any device in any context greets you with "Hello" or "Welcome", it is announcing that it doesn't belong to you, and that you must be vigilant to its exploitation of you.

Windows is remarkable in that it is constantly editing itself, revising terms of service without notice, nudging, cajoling, and end-running you and at every turn.

Update cannot be stopped, yet updater messages make it seem like you are initiating work and responsible for its successful completion:

"You're 90% there...",

"Don't turn off your PC",

"Something didn't go as planned, don't worry your data is safe",

which is eternally followed by "Welcome" lets arrange a few things...

Apple's dark patterns are far lower key as they supply the total stack, it's feels more custodial.

Linux if it says anything-- which it usually doesn't say much-- will say these changes are well-known to wreck things but you're at our mercy, them your system is put into some polluted state associated with a bygone era and all your config and data is your problem hope you're skilled at IT.

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cute_boi
1 hour ago
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even if you remove one drive in next update it will be installed automatically.
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mehdibl
2 hours ago
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So to free up space you delete folders instead of moving your familyvphotos that you don't have backup.

Can we stop a bit this all evil Microsoft fault?

And the author have a solution. Yeah those headline are buzzing.

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legitster
1 hour ago
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We've really got to stop calling every bad UI a dark pattern. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence." Having worked at MSFT I can tell you there's a LOT more incompetence than malice.
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Arainach
53 minutes ago
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Forcing a cloud login for a desktop operating system is arguably a dark pattern.

Defaulting to uploading all locally saved documents to cloud storage is ABSOLUTELY a dark pattern.

The prompts every few months to "change back to recommended defaults" that make it easy to accidentally get into this state even if you made the correct decision previously to turn it off is a hellish black hole of a pattern.

All three are intentional, not incompetent.

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rectang
1 hour ago
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Selective incompetence for fun and profit:

Pricing mistakes which make the supermarket money are unfortunate but low priority. Pricing mistakes which cost the supermarket money must be fixed immediately.

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raincole
1 hour ago
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This particular case isn't a dark pattern, but the fact OSes are written under the assumption that users want to create an account for cloud services is.

(Yes, by this definition Google, Microsoft and Apple are all dark patterners.)

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xzjis
1 hour ago
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The problem is that this incompetence is the result of (bad) choices by Microsoft's management. I'm not even talking about middle managers but the C-suite, who only care about satisfying shareholders, not about creating good working conditions or making sure the product is good.
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rcxdude
41 minutes ago
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It's pretty obvious that Microsoft is forcing their cloud services on anyone that doesn't actively fight back. Whether this is because they deliberately expect that they will dupe people into paying for storage they don't need or just because the cloud services team needs to hit their user KPI doesn't really matter much.
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