France to ditch Windows for Linux to reduce reliance on US tech
180 points
1 hour ago
| 22 comments
| techcrunch.com
| HN
Melatonic
9 minutes ago
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The age of the Linux desktop might actually finally be coming

Personally I think we are at an interim period for a big player to emerge and take over this space. If enough governments in the EU start switching over to customized linux distros theres a big chance for someone like Nokia to come in and develop their own approved distro with proper MDM and GPO-like management functionality baked in .

On top of that it could be great to see SteamOS continue to gain share and become more than just something people run on gaming purpose hardware.

And thirdly would love to see a more simplistic but super lean and functional OS built on something like the BSD.

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BLKNSLVR
1 hour ago
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I hope it succeeds and I hope they document the experience and invite interested parties to see how it was setup and how (well) it works in order to encourage as many governments and organisations as possible to do the same.
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sega_sai
17 minutes ago
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I think France seem serious in actually switching to open source/EU software. I recently had a telecon on Visio (France's Teams/Zoom substitute) and it worked well in a browser with ~ 10 participants.
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dleslie
1 hour ago
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Canada has been using and developing FOSS for a while now.

0: https://www.canada.ca/en/government/system/digital-governmen...

1: https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017...

2: https://github.com/canada-ca/

There's still a great deal of Windows usage, but hopefully that will phase out with the passage of time. Canada's bureaucracy moves slowly, at the pace of generational attrition. It won't be until the last GenX retires that they could even meaningfully begin transitioning the average office worker away from Windows.

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realo
1 hour ago
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dleslie
58 minutes ago
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The Phoenix contract predates the more recent efforts to switch to FOSS.

But also, Canada loves to burn money on American suppliers. It's probably why the recent interest in _Buy Canadian_ has the American administration annoyed.

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yibers
1 hour ago
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I am saying this as a very long time Windows user, and it saddens me. Politics aside, from a pure technichal, functional, privacy and UX perspective, the case for changing over from Windows to Linux is getting stronger by the day.
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PaulDavisThe1st
6 minutes ago
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I am saying this as a very long time Linux user, and it saddens me. Politics aside, from a pure technical, functional, privacy and UX perspective, the case for changing over from Windows has been apparent for several decades.
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lithos
1 hour ago
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If you picked XFCE as your front end you get WinXP functionality, with the nice things from win10/11 (start menu search that's actually local only, multiple desktop workspaces, and graphical settings/updates I've only needed to go to command line twice in four years).
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yibers
46 minutes ago
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How does XFCE compare to KDE and GNOME? Also, does it has all the nice window snapping features that I'm used to fron Windows?
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cwillu
15 minutes ago
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I don't think all the same shortcuts exist out of the box, although win-drag/win-right-drag to move and resize windows (might be alt by default) is _so_ much more convenient than the usual border/title dragging that you might find you don't miss them.
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lithos
38 minutes ago
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My personal PCs have enough screens that I haven't tried. Though I do really like Windows snapping features on my work laptop (can't change OS there).

I haven't played with other windowing systems to judge too much. And just picked right from screen shots/gifs to not need to try.

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yorwba
1 hour ago
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Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47716043 (764 points 5 hours ago, 384 comments)
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MegagramEnjoyer
50 minutes ago
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I applaud France for this decision. Windows is basically legal spyware and adware at this point
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WaryByDesign
1 hour ago
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It's... an admirable goal, but it pretty much remains to be seen if "France"[1] follows through.

Previous attempts to "ditch Windows" have not ended that well. Munich in 2003, the entire Federal German government in 2009, Munich again in 2013, Munich again in 2021, and so on. Most common end-result: back to Windows.

Breaking points are typically the lack of an "Office 2016" compatible suite, lack of "Adobe PDF" tooling, and a mishmash of legacy apps. The latter seems trivially addressable by a "Remote Desktop/RemoteApps" environment, but there are definitely issues, mostly surrounding printing and clipboard handling.

All of that can be solved, but definitely requires more funding and, crucially, coordination, beyond "Open Source Cures All."

[1] Oh, I just love it when an entire culturally-diverse region gets lumped in together, or, when, as in this case, ~6M French government employees are treated as a homogeneous group.

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ricw
36 minutes ago
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Munich is a bad example - they were effectively „bought out“ by Microsoft by investing hugely into the local economy in the form of offices and employees. It was also two parties that kept flip flopping with different priorities. Linux itself had some hiccups but was fine from what I recall.
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WaryByDesign
27 minutes ago
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> they were effectively "bought out" by Microsoft

Yeah, let me dispute that. They were, at least on three occasions, forced to roll back due to "citizen sent me X and can't open it" and/or "sent Y to citizen and they can't open it" concerns.

Mind you: these issues still persist in a fully Microsoft/Adobe "solution environment", but less so than in the "disregard all and move to Linux" situation.

And to be perfectly clear: that's all unacceptable. But it adds another, say, EUR 2B to the equation.

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gus_
3 minutes ago
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https://itsfoss.com/munich-linux-failure/

It doesn't matter if this or that doesn't work. Or if Microslop pressures to continue using Winslop.

Now the reasons are geopolitical.

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atherton94027
18 minutes ago
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You must be German — the French state is a lot more top down than Germany with its regions, so generally these kinds of mandates get applied broadly
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WaryByDesign
10 minutes ago
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> You must be German

Oof, that's just offensive!

Anyway, most German Linux 'mandates' were indeed regional, and (for good reasons!) failed to migrate 'upstream'.

Whether the French mandate takes hold remains to be seen. "We're not Germany" is not the end-all argument it might seem to be to you.

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samsk
41 minutes ago
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Earlier attempts were mostly about money and ideology. Now its a question of security, thanks to one 'clever' 'businessman'. So thanks to his _great_ efforts, it might actually work out this time.
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Akronymus
51 minutes ago
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Werent the munich government employees quite happy with linux, but microsofts lobbying with their headquarters got them to switch back?
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WaryByDesign
32 minutes ago
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I'm not aware of Microsoft's economic footprint in the Munich region, but I doubt it's significant.

The complaints that lead to the several-reversions-to-Windows at the time, as I recall, were all around "citizen sent me X, can't open X"

And those are all addressable issues, but not without significant know-how and funding.

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LtWorf
4 minutes ago
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> I'm not aware of Microsoft's economic footprint in the Munich region, but I doubt it's significant.

Perhaps be aware before explaining everyone how things really are?

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mixmastamyk
1 hour ago
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If they only diverted 10% of the budget from MS to solving issues they’d have had a solution a decade or two ago.
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WaryByDesign
53 minutes ago
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I'm... not so sure? The French government has, widely seen, 6M employees. Given retail pricing of EUR200/seat/year (and they definitely have a better arrangement), that's 1.2B, and I'm not sure that's enough to provide an identity management plus office apps plus file storage solution? And at 10% of that? Absolutely forget it...
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mixmastamyk
48 minutes ago
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All of that came about without them spending anything. So the extra is just to fix bugs and do integration work. StarOffice (LibreOffice ancestor) existed in the 90s—I used it and it was fine for government work.

File storage? Cheap by Y2K as well.

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danny_codes
24 minutes ago
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You’re saying a government couldn’t take open source building blocks and run.. office apps with basic security and.. file storage? For $100M a year? This could be done with a 30 person team
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WaryByDesign
16 minutes ago
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, If your mythical 30-person teams were achievable, a lot of major US 'cyber'security firms would be in major trouble. Pop-quiz, hotshot: what does Citrix (market valuation: USD 16.5B), technically, have over your team (market valuation: USD 0B)?
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fxtentacle
36 minutes ago
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Munich led to "all of Schleswig-Holstein" in Germany. 44,000 Exchange mailboxes replaced with Open-Xchange. 25,000 Windows+Office desktops replaced with Linux+OpenOffice.
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WaryByDesign
3 minutes ago
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Nope. That was rolled back: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-i...

And, again, I'd very much like Microsoft to lose here, but, there are real issues here

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bornfreddy
46 minutes ago
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Motivation matters.
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1970-01-01
1 hour ago
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>The French government did not provide a specific timeline for the switchover, or which distributions it was considering.

Do they realize they need to pick a LTS distro now? You can't mix and match distros without having a massive IT and user retraining budgets.

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ErroneousBosh
10 minutes ago
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Why would you need any user retraining?

All distros are basically identical. The only real difference is whether you spell "package manager" as apt, yum, or dnf.

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_blk
36 minutes ago
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They likely don't. It's a purely political move not a technical move. With the average length of the French work week, this will take a while to implement anyway. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great thought but I don't think it's more than a short-sighted reaction. Munich unfortunately faltered after a few years.
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sherburt3
1 hour ago
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I'm sure there's a barely functioning business critical app that runs exclusively on Windows NT in their administration that would beg to differ
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ang_cire
51 minutes ago
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If it only runs on NT, it'll work better under WINE than on Win10/11.

Legacy app compat is actually an argument for moving to Linux.

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psychoslave
1 hour ago
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It can be ported to React under a single prompt by now, don’t you know?

But certainly we are already at stage where Windows NT can be regenerated on the fly from a prompt anyway, aren’t we?

Otherwise, there is also ReactOS that could be leveraged on for that kind of scenario. I wonder where it would stand by now if all the money that governments around the world spent in Microsoft license would have been invested in it instead.

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justinclift
1 hour ago
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Sure. But if they can successfully convert 99% of their computers to non-Windows and non-Mac, that'd still be a massive win.
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BLKNSLVR
59 minutes ago
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Ideology may actually be the best way to cut off legacy bullshit like this. There's passion-energy, which really gets the creative problem-solving juices flowing.
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simonask
25 minutes ago
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Please tell me this also means that they are redirecting the expenses currently going to Microsoft into funding open source development?
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somat
33 minutes ago
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I understand what they mean, linux offers freedom, enough that it divorces your tech stack from any one company.

But isn't linux US tech? The blueprint, UNIX was a US project, torvolds works from the US. the original userland GNU was a US based project. The new userland systemd is a US based project.

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benterix
29 minutes ago
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> But isn't linux US tech?

If you want to discuss it on that level, it if Finnish tech imported to the USA, inspired by a Dutch implementation of a research OS.

On a more serious note, Linux has been developed by many individuals all over the world, you can't put a nationality stamp on it.

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tensor
9 minutes ago
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The difference, of course, is that they can inspect the source, and should the US try to use it as leverage they can just fork and continue on.
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nix0n
15 minutes ago
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Linux is a global project, and open source more broadly is also of course global.

Linux Mint (the distro I use) was started and is led by French developer Clement Lefebvre.

QEMU and FFmpeg are among the notable projects started by French developer Fabrice Bellard.

VLC was started by students of École Centrale Paris.

These are just the things that I know about as an American, so I'm sure there are more.

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shafiemoji
1 hour ago
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Wish the Bangladeshi government did this instead of relying on pirated copies of Windows 7
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BLKNSLVR
1 hour ago
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At least they know enough to have stuck with the outright best version of Windows.
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charcircuit
11 minutes ago
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Desktop Linux's security and antimalware solutions are not ready for government usage. This is a cyber attack waiting to happen if they go through with this. They should at least switch to ChromeOS if they want to use Linux.
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heyflyguy
1 hour ago
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man, that's great - but can you imagine some bureaucrat lifer having to adapt to this?
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MegagramEnjoyer
48 minutes ago
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we need more tech literacy overall, so this might help with that also
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moron4hire
1 hour ago
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I wish the US Government would do the same
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Teever
1 hour ago
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I’ve commented on this before but you’ll know France is serious when there are Linux ports of Solidworks and Catia.

France has a real edge over American companies by being the dominant player in the CAD world, it’s always surprised me that they nerfed that advantage by tying to an American operating system.

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carefree-bob
1 hour ago
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Autocad has 39% market share in CAD, Solidworks has 14% market share, and Fusion 360 has 9%.

None of this is a major national advantage for any side. It's bizarre to think that the US or France would treat this as some kind of mark of national influence, since if anything happens to these top three vendors, there are lots of other vendors waiting in the wings. It's not like a national oil reserve, where it's important that you have a reserve of CAD software available for your engineers.

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Teever
51 minutes ago
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But what kind of projects are people using these different pieces of software for?

Are people designing aircraft carriers in Fusion?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that AutoCAD is extremely important for architecture and the death grip that AutoDesk has over that industry needs to be broken for the benefit of all of us, but from my understanding Dessault Systems makes software that is used for totally different purposes and is of vital strategic importance for a nation that wants an independent MIC which France obviously does.

So it seems foolish to me for them to have their own CAD software that can and is used to design weapons but be dependent on an American operating system produced by a particularly unscrupulous company who is obsessed with tighter and tigher control and has definite ties to the US intelligence apparatus.

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ThePowerOfFuet
23 minutes ago
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>Are people designing aircraft carriers in Fusion?

I don't know, but I have watched people designing high-speed trains in CATIA.

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carefree-bob
41 minutes ago
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I doubt that the US military itself is using commercial CAD software, most likely they are using something in house. Again, CAD software is not Extreme Ultra Lithography, where it is a marvel of engineering and can only be produced by one firm. The netherlands can rightly be proud of ASML as a national achievement. But CAD software? Now that's just goofy.

Check out: https://www.army.mil/article/249241/armys_powerful_open_sour...

But I would assume defense contractors -- the private firms like Lockheed -- are probably using commercial software. The US military is pretty bureaucratic and is filled with bespoke stuff, whereas the contractors are basically businesses and would use whatever is common in commercial business world.

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ezst
47 minutes ago
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Wasn't CATIA running on unix even before it ran on Windows?
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ChrisArchitect
1 hour ago
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lousken
1 hour ago
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Now nextcloud and libreoffice should give up the stupid drama and focus on beating microsoft.
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AtlasBarfed
1 hour ago
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The fact that open source is a national security concern should have been something that a crazy orange man should have triggered.

Thus was obvious decades ago. And open source is the key model for collective development in a secure manner for disparate countries to secure their software base.

Alas, I fear they will only concentrate on the server side. The securing of the desktop should be a parallel concern as well, to help prevent your citizenry from becoming DDOS slaves.

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otabdeveloper4
1 hour ago
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What? Again?

I lost count, it's how many attempts again? Fill me in.

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mrheosuper
2 minutes ago
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It needs just 1 successful attemp.
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icfly2
1 hour ago
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The gendarmerie already switched.

Only place I know that went back to MS is Munich city council. After MS put a big research office in the town.

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forty
1 hour ago
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As far as I know it was successful for the gendarmerie and assemblée nationale for exemple. There are many public entities and apparently each migration is news worthy
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josefritzishere
1 hour ago
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We're going to keep seeing this due to destabilization and political changes in the US. It drives nationalization elsewhere, even among allies.
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_verandaguy
1 hour ago
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It doesn't help that Microsoft seems to be doing everything in its power to alienate Windows users.
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recursivegirth
1 hour ago
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This, I've officially been off Windows for a few months and will not be looking back. Microsoft has put a bad taste in my mouth as a developer.

By luck and happenstance, I tuned into the Omacon conference this morning and my perspective on personal computing very much aligns with theirs. Would encourage a least watch the kickoff keynote if the VODs drop.

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htx80nerd
1 hour ago
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this has been happening on and off for ~10+ yrs. MS cost are too high and you need more expensive computers to have the MS sub-par experience.

the main thing that keeps people locked in is (a) "Im use to windows" and (b) MS gives them some special contract to keep them.

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