US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional
143 points
by t-3
2 hours ago
| 12 comments
| nypost.com
| HN
bsimpson
55 minutes ago
[-]
Do this one next:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich

The Supreme Court somehow held that the feds can regulate what you do in your own home (in this case, growing marijuana for personal use) because it could have a butterfly effect on the interstate price. (Constitutionally, the feds can only regulate _interstate_ commerce.)

reply
tdb7893
20 minutes ago
[-]
I think much more likely is that it will just be made legal federally sometime in the next decade. Marijuana legalization has majorities across ideologies (https://news.gallup.com/poll/514007/grassroots-support-legal...) and even though the inability to create federal law on something so popular seems like a good case study on how the US system doesn't always do a good job representing it's actual people, it seems to be at a critical mass where it can't be ignored for much longer. Even my parents' friends who are conservative have started doing weed.
reply
dmitrygr
8 minutes ago
[-]
You’re probably right, though I dread the possibility. I cannot stand the smell, and one of the best things about moving from California to Texas was avoiding that pervasive smell being everywhere. Negative externalities of personal behavior really need to be handled better in our society. If you want pot to be legal, fine, but only inside your own personal enclosed house.
reply
caycep
22 seconds ago
[-]
I mean, there are plenty of neighborhoods in CA that don't have that smell...
reply
barbazoo
2 minutes ago
[-]
That's only one of many ways to consume it, many people vape, have edibles or drinks and you just don't notice.
reply
swiftcoder
50 minutes ago
[-]
I'd imagine one wants to litigate Wickard v. Filburn in its entirety, rather than just the downstream Gonzales v. Raich
reply
mothballed
44 minutes ago
[-]
That would also invalidate the civil rights act, as the (similar) 19th century CRA was already struck down because the 14th amendment binds against discrimination by public not private actors. The reason why the modern CRAs weren't also struck is because they rested on the laurels of Wickard v Filburn declaring the CRA (this time) is about regulating "interstate" commerce.
reply
bombcar
42 minutes ago
[-]
fixing the interstate commerce clause is one of those things that needs to be done eventually, but will likely never be done - even if just to "fix" it so everything remains the same but is based on simpler allocation of powers than through a "loophole".
reply
tyre
31 minutes ago
[-]
Another case based on interstate commerce: the US ban on racial segregation. The example given, iirc, was restaurant competition across state lines.
reply
tt24
27 minutes ago
[-]
The interstate commerce clause is just craziness. It touches everything and gives justification to regulate nearly anything.
reply
mothballed
23 minutes ago
[-]
You could just as easily stuff most of those things under the "general welfare" clause if you do the same rigamarole of years and years of precedent hand-waving. We live in a post constitutional state. The constitution is just something worked to backwards so the guys who function as our priests/gods point to the document because that's the only way to feign some sort of legitimacy to our government.

Ultimately none of us signed the constitution and all of those people that did are dead. It is a religious artifact used by the whig -god people to argue they are right. Not something followed with faith to the historical context nor literal contract.

reply
Der_Einzige
27 minutes ago
[-]
I wouldn't be surprised if this one unironically goes given that Uber/Lyft are fully doing "women only" ride shares now.

Gen Z / Alpha have embraced X-"realism" and fully accept essentialism/reject "intersectionality". They're far more conservative/prudish than millennials, even at their young age.

reply
esseph
3 minutes ago
[-]
[delayed]
reply
jmyeet
35 minutes ago
[-]
I looked at the actual decision [1] and didn't see Filburn mentioned once. I find that odd. Filburn [2] was a controversial and far-reaching decision that said that the Federal government's ability to regulate interstate commerce extended to people growing wheat on their own property for their own use. The rationale was that by growing wheat you weren't participating in the interstate wheat market. That seems like a wild interpretation to me but it's Supreme Court precedent at this point.

So I found this footnote:

> The government does not challenge the district court’s Commerce Clause analysis on appeal. Accordingly, any such argument is forfeited, and we do not address it.

That's interesting. Here's a legal analysis that does bring up the Commerce Clause and Filburn [3]. I really wonder why the government didn't raise this issue.

I knew just from the headline this was going to be a 5th Circuit decision, and it was. This is the same circuit that is perfectly fine to override "state's rights" for other issues.

[1]:https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/24/24-10760-CV0.pd...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

[3]: https://www.yalejreg.com/nc/reviving-the-commerce-clause-one...

reply
bee_rider
12 minutes ago
[-]
That seems like a pretty over-reaching interpretation. It makes sense in the context (needing to support federal economic control during WW2). But in some sense the economy is a dynamic system that touches and is touched by almost every decision we make. I made a pot of coffee this morning, should the federal government have the ability to decide whether or not I’m damaging the cafe market by not supporting my local cafe?
reply
gbear605
32 minutes ago
[-]
It's possible that the government thought that if they did try to challenge the Commerce Clause analysis, then the Supreme Court could have struck down Filburn. They'd much rather lose narrowly on this specific case than have Filburn reversed entirely.
reply
mothballed
27 minutes ago
[-]
SCOTUS did a pretty hilarious soft "strike down" of Wickard where they basically determined the gun free school zone act (GFSZA) violated interstate commerce clause. So congress just added "in interstate commerce" to the GFSZA and now it does the exact same thing even if there was no interstate commerce involved, and nothing involved ever crossed state lines or actually entered interstate commerce.

So SCOTUS basically solved this by saying the law had to say "in interstate commerce" but it is basically just there as a talisman to ward away challenges, a distinction without any difference as it becomes a tautology.

reply
semiquaver
1 hour ago
[-]

  > [Judge Edith Jones] also said that under the government’s logic, Congress could  criminalize virtually any in-home activity
Well, yeah. This is essentially the holding in Wickard v. Filburn, which seems to be in tension with this decision (overturning that would be great but it’s not the role of the circuit courts of appeal to do preemptively)
reply
Joker_vD
31 minutes ago
[-]
Also, this line is quite funny on its own because while understand what she actually meant, it can be very easily reinterpreted as "only actions committed out-of-home should be crimes; murdered someone in your home? welp, our hands are tied, have a nice day".
reply
jcims
47 minutes ago
[-]
Bought and rigged up a 'hand sanitizer plant' about five months into COVID. Populated the thing with thermocouples, load cells and automation with nodered on raspberry pi and a bunch of esp32s flashed with tasmota doing sensing and control. Everything talked over mqtt. Great little architecture and having it highly automated allowed me to focus on the parts that were less easily controlled for.

Dashboard: https://imgur.com/a/so7iZJX

Sanitizer run: https://imgur.com/a/iWDlNfb

Quite a lot of fun actually.

reply
ryandamm
1 hour ago
[-]
Missed in the previous discussion: methanol is irrelevant. Grain based ferments have essentially zero methanol.(And methanol risk is a function of its concentration relative to ethanol — the treatment for methanol poisoning is… ethanol!) even fruit based fermentations with significantly higher pectin concentrations only produce trace methanol, and it’s not all that well concentrated in a distillation due to azeotropes (which also says that throwing out the heads doesn’t help that much).

Methanol poisoning stories in the news almost exclusively result from people trying to sell denatured or industrial alcohol. The biggest risk in home distilling is fire.

reply
jppope
15 minutes ago
[-]
> Methanol poisoning stories in the news almost exclusively result from people trying to sell denatured or industrial alcohol

Pretty sure this was a relic of prohibition right? The feds would contaminate ethanol with methanol to keep people from drinking it, but then they hurt a bunch of people and never faced any consequences...

reply
delichon
51 minutes ago
[-]
> the treatment for methanol poisoning is… ethanol!

My grandpa drank a shot of schnapps every night and called it his medicine. I thought it was a euphemism but apparently he was actually taking an antidote prophylactically. You can't be too careful. He never once got methanol poisoning.

reply
gostsamo
1 hour ago
[-]
As someone living in the Balkans, home brewing is a national passtime for every nation around. When every family has its own recipe for brewing alcohol, killing ourselves would've been achieved many centuries ago if it was a real concern. Methanol is an issue when some dumbshit decides to cell chemically produced trash on industrial scale instead of buying the expensive ingredients.
reply
htx80nerd
29 minutes ago
[-]
almost every year there is a news story of some Western tourist visiting another country dying from bootleg methanol alcohol
reply
gostsamo
21 minutes ago
[-]
As I said, this happens when someone tries to sell illegally produced trash created not by brewing but with sugar, chemical essence, and whatever they've mistaken for ethanol. The tax on alcohol creates a black market and some people taking part in it are either dumb or lazy and those are the cases you hear about.
reply
cucumber3732842
1 hour ago
[-]
Was it missed or intentionally downplayed/ignored because people came into the discussion with priors that they were eager to maintain?

Seems like these sorts of "yes it could be unsafe in theory but the reality of physics and incentives make this mostly irrelevant" type things get missed far too often certain parts of the internet to be coincidence.

That said, the fact that it dropped on a weekend did it no favors the first time around.

reply
ch4s3
1 hour ago
[-]
Speaking as a brewer, I can tell you that tons of people who should know better actually believe the methanol thing and will even quote some sciency words to make their argument. I think its a case of bad information coming from black market distilling being propagated uncritically. People who know better (licensed distillers) have no incentive to argue against it.
reply
GenerWork
53 minutes ago
[-]
It's been way too long since I've taken a political science course, but does this mean that the ban is struck down for the entire country, or just the area that the 5th Court of Appeals covers?
reply
rtkwe
37 minutes ago
[-]
The ruling only has binding precedent in the 5th Circuit, other circuits aren't bound to follow it. Formerly this kind of ruling would come with a nationwide injunction to force the issue but now that those are severely curtailed by the Supreme Court it's only binding to the courts under the jurisdiction of the 5th circuit.

Decisions in other circuits can be very persuasive to other circuits but they're not required to agree the same way a Supreme Court ruling is binding. Circuit splits are moderately common and usually trigger a review by the supreme court if an appeal wasn't filed for the earlier decisions.

reply
gmiller123456
45 minutes ago
[-]
Appeals court decisions generally only apply to their own jurisdiction. But they obviously hold a lot of weight when cited in others.
reply
malfist
47 minutes ago
[-]
Prior to this year, the entire country. Today, thanks to SCOTUS shenanigans, it likely only applies to the states involved in the lawsuit, LA. But who knows, hard to keep up with the game of calvinball the SCOTUS is playing.
reply
dcrazy
44 minutes ago
[-]
You seem to be confusing precedent-setting decisions with nationwide injunctions.
reply
joshstrange
2 hours ago
[-]
reply
ckemere
1 hour ago
[-]
Wasn’t great. Would love a second attempt focused on distilling not individualist v collectivist or immigration.

(Except for relevant connections around sharing your creations with neighbors and/or internationally inspired novel spirits.)

reply
wing-_-nuts
1 hour ago
[-]
I am not really a fan of liquor, but I do like the idea of having skills which are universally valuable.

If you air dropped me into a random village in Africa I doubt I could 'code for cassava' but I could almost certainly make a living if I knew how to set up a basic pot still and safely create booze.

reply
a_conservative
52 minutes ago
[-]
You could sanitize and disinfect with that alcohol! You could also make extracts of any plants nearby that were useful. Whiskey and vanilla beans are sufficient to make vanilla extract!
reply
mothballed
36 minutes ago
[-]
Sub saharan africa already has a very large informal distilling network (especially of bananas), a niche largely reserved for women in many regions (not sure for what the reason is for that exactly).
reply
superjan
29 minutes ago
[-]
Might as well plug this recent Criminal Podcast episode: https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-358-the-formula-3-27-2026

TLDL: During prohibition, US government required adding 5% methanol to industrial alcohol, hoping that this would stop bootleggers from selling it as liquor. It was sold anyway, resulting in many deaths.

reply
aqme28
14 minutes ago
[-]
To be fair, we still add 5-10% methanol to industrial alcohol. But also a bunch of bitterants to discourage use.
reply
mordae
7 minutes ago
[-]
Are adding it or just distill both because it's cheaper?
reply
caycep
1 minute ago
[-]
how...uh...explosive...are home stills?
reply
mothballed
39 minutes ago
[-]
The post '86 machine gun ban relies on basically the exact principle overturned here.
reply
EgregiousCube
11 minutes ago
[-]
Yes, it'd be interesting if this gets appealed and the SC gets to take a look at if $0 tax stamps are allowable under the tax and spending clause.
reply
lenerdenator
36 minutes ago
[-]
It'll be interesting to see how many people get methanol poisoning from trying their hand at it without doing the research properly. That being said, so long as it's for private or non-profit use, I don't really see the harm here.
reply
ChrisArchitect
1 hour ago
[-]
reply
gigatexal
38 minutes ago
[-]
Big beer head Kavanaugh and Kegseth are probably jumping for joy.
reply