Nonprofit hospitals spend billions on consultants with no clear effect
136 points
by hhs
8 hours ago
| 16 comments
| uchicagomedicine.org
| HN
arjie
1 hour ago
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Realistically, non-profit hospitals aren't non-profit because they are altruistic in some sense. It's because that is a tax-efficient structure for them. Given that, the participants in the structure must have a mechanism to extract money from the machine. It's a bit of a cynical view, but I believe many non-profits are organized in this fashion and their vendor contracts are the mechanism of value extraction.

Besides the big tax advantages for the business, there are programs like the 340B Drug Pricing Program - that allow non-profit hospitals to acquire drugs at much lower cost which they can then sell to patients at normal cost. Tools like this make it useful for non-profit hospitals to acquire for-profit hospitals and effectively instantly tune up their margins, which they in fact do.

That makes this just a business operating using a tax-advantaged method, somewhat like Ikea. I think the confusion occurs when people assume 'non-profit' is a public charity that gives away money. In practice, it's just a business structure with certain advantages and constraints.

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keybored
17 minutes ago
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Assuming that non-profits are altruistic seems fallacious. Granted, I don’t know why they are assumed to be by some; it’s just presented as such because it seems obvious, no arguments need to be given.

It’s clearly fallacious to assume that non-profit is altruistic just because, I don’t know, for-profit is assumed as a premise to be about egotistical money hoarding.

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hahajk
6 hours ago
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"Hospitals navigating challenging financial and regulatory landscapes may call on these specialists for advice on strategic planning, cost-cutting, reorganizations, or revenue-boosting initiatives."

I think it's been stated in this thread, and I learned it reading the comments on HN, but consultants are not hired to optimize processes but instead to provide decision insurance. If you take a big risk by yourself and it goes poorly, your job and reputation are on the line. If you hire a consulting firm that advises you take the risk, and report that the risk is properly characterized and understood, and then it goes wrong - well sometimes the best laid plans fall victim to circumstance.

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Spooky23
4 hours ago
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That’s really only a rather small part of the picture.

Hospitals are opex constrained for things that don’t generate revenue. The operations run lean and are focused on operating. There’s no bench in finance or IT or whatever to figure stuff out. Enter the consultant.

Consulting is often tied to capital spend and most importantly they go away when the job is done.

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Avicebron
6 hours ago
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Which immediately begs the question, how do you become one of these faceless people waving vaguely in the air saying "fire a whole lot of people, that should mean you spend less right?"

I submit my thesis. The PE/consultant class. A crust of slime buoyed about on the waves of capital to provide cover for the horrors underneath.

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pocksuppet
5 hours ago
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I think you can only get in this position if you're already playing golf with enough CEOs. Over golf the CEO casually mentions he wants to fire 30% of the workforce but he doesn't want the flak. Then you suggest you could write a consulting report on it.
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gofreddygo
1 hour ago
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Consultant... Hmm Reminds me of Barney's P.L.E.A.S.E.[1] acronym for Provide Legal Exculpation And Sign Everything.

1: https://youtu.be/ZfWVV533RHE

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dyauspitr
6 hours ago
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That’s not the only reason the other reason is these processes and ways of doing things are so bureaucratic and hard to navigate that you actually do need very specialized information from consultants that it’s not easy to come by
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rnxrx
6 hours ago
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Not to be glib, but is there any industry where management consultants have been shown to make a statistically significant difference either way?
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GuestFAUniverse
26 minutes ago
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Statistically relevant: yes. In a positive way: no.

Well, McKinsey still existing? Too much influence. Otherwise they would have gone like so many other consulting companies.

https://www.trtworld.com/article/12748537

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John23832
6 hours ago
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The management consulting industry wouldn’t work without them.
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Cookingboy
6 hours ago
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I mean does it work? Other than profit making for the consulting companies?

Like someone else pointed out, if people are hiring them in order to provide cover for decision making, then maybe the whole thing being a charade is the point.

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stouset
5 hours ago
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You missed the joke.
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protocolture
4 hours ago
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My dad ran a crisis management consultancy for years. I just googled a few of his clients and they all survived the process. He would come in, assist with minor layoffs, repair business processes, usually get some software installed/updated back when that was a huge multiplier to a business and then leave when everything was running smooth.

I also am aware of a situation where a pair of business consultants who were meant to be assisting with a software project were diverted (at full rate 1200/day) to assisting with redecorating an office.

I was directly involved, oppositionally, to a pair of business analyst consultants who tried to get a customer of mine to change their (admittedly terrible) vendor selection by repeating security concerns over and over again in the meeting. They never actually got to the point of analysing said terrible vendors terrible integration practices or costing up a migration path. They just banged on about security and contacted us separately after the meeting asking for more details about the security situation.

Basically you get out of it, what you want to get out of it. It depends on the consultant, their education, and the terms of their engagement. I don't know if statistics would be useful in this scenario or how you would control for wildly different outcomes.

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JTbane
6 hours ago
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In, fire 30% of the workforce, new logo, out.

You are now a fully trained management consultant. (Alan Johnson, Peep Show)

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dgan
54 minutes ago
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TIL gnome-lib has a meaning outside of programming
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nitwit005
7 hours ago
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Good to know I'm qualified. I am confident I can make no measurable difference.
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coffeefirst
6 hours ago
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In fact, I’m prepared to make no difference 80% faster and 50% cheaper.
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shermantanktop
6 hours ago
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If we’re bidding on this job, I can make no difference in zero time for one penny. I will want a minimum of one second of employment though, gotta pay those bills.
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hatthew
7 hours ago
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Can't access the paper, but I'm curious how they measured statistical significance. I wonder how much to interpret the result as "we didn't measure any effect" (which is a largely meaningless conclusion) versus "no effect exists." The latter wouldn't be a rigorous statement, but it seems to be the conclusion we are being led towards.
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cameron_b
6 hours ago
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One contributing factor I experience is that keeping competent, opinionated, leadership who are a good fit is an expensive proposition, and the "hold fast" position will always be challenged by whatever board is scrutinizing the budget/plan/forecast. The only play where no top brass has to catch a parachute is to bring in a consultant to scrutinize the business, read the crystal ball, and pitch a plan to weather the coming storm. Medicare funds are dust in the wind, Covid-era opportunities are dead and over, and the big axe has swung so much it needs sharpening. None of these are easy decisions to make and the result of "we're still doing what we're doing" is success.
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KLK2019
4 hours ago
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I did a brief review of the publication. I do think its hard to isolate consulting engagement with broad measures on financial performance, and claims based patient outcomes.

With that being said, consultants have no skin in the game, and thier incentives are aligned more towards executive relationship management and seeking out new opportunities for revenue vs. achieving aspirational metrics that ultimately matter to a health system.

I work in medtech and a model that I am more hopeful for is attaching consulting servics with capital purchaes. (e.g. siemans, GE). This model puts skin in the game from the manufacturer as outcomes and ultimately future revenue is tied to being able to show improvement on key clinical, financial, and operational metrics.

Curious to see if this study design can be applied under this scenario (search for press releases regarding signed partnerhsips with medtech and examine a narrower set of outcomes identified in those press releases).

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jimjonescoolaid
5 hours ago
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False. Consultants made billions of dollars. This is a massive win for the consulting industry.
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chmod775
5 hours ago
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They're just part of the machinery for extracting money from these "nonprofits". Take a closer look at anything these paragons of virtue spend money on, and you'll find rot in every last minute detail of their day-to-day operations.
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KumaBear
5 hours ago
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Like many VC’s that extract wealth from companies to enrich themselves.
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boznz
7 hours ago
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There is a very clear effect, the bureaucrats can distance themselves from any unpopular policies or decisions and blame the consultants.
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oklahomasports
7 hours ago
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tedious cliche. these types of consultants arent advising on high level f500 decisions.
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toast0
7 hours ago
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What do management consultants do?

Afaik, their job is to give management the cover managment thinks it needs to do the things it wants to do or thinks it needs to do.

The article claims the study says the billions spent on management consultants didn't move any metrics significantly, other than a small negative change for stroke readmissions.

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mchusma
4 hours ago
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My father used to say "Nonprofit doesn't mean that nobody can make a profit". Seems applicable here.
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SoftTalker
3 hours ago
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Mine had a slight variation, "Nonprofit doesn't mean that nobody can make money".
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layoric
5 hours ago
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Most of the hospital consultancy firms tied to nonprofit hospital management/board for 500 Alex.
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thefz
1 hour ago
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"nonprofit hospitals", let it sink in.
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Ekaros
1 hour ago
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I take here "nonprofit" means same as it does with religions.
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diogenescynic
4 hours ago
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I have never seen them consultants that provide a value commensurate with the prices they charge. They seem more like a proxy for fraud. When I worked at PayPal, there was a director who had an army of Deloitte consultants who just so happened to be from her husband's team at Deloitte. It was a clear conflict of interest and even though execs were aware, nothing was ever done. I imagine that's going on all over the place.
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SoftTalker
3 hours ago
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Yep, "follow the money" often explains a lot of things that appear to be bizarre or irrational at first glance.
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snapetom
5 hours ago
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Don't care. I'm going to name and shame. I worked at Seattle Children's Hospital in tech for a short time. The insane amount of self congratulatory back patting to mask incompetence and tolerance of mediocrity wasted billions that could have gone to patient care. What I witnessed there was damn near criminal.
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FireBeyond
2 hours ago
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Maybe they could run a fundraiser in Laurelhurst for some of that money. Anything to keep the residents distracted from spending money on business FlightAware subscriptions and fighting the DOH to try to get medical records to "show" that the three airlift helicopters a week that land at SCH are in violation of their community council noise ordinance because they weren't truly "life threatening emergencies" and thus should have landed at UW or Harborview and been ground ferried from there to Children's.

Apparently the only helicopter noise some residents like is the sound of their own, ferrying them to BFI so they can go to Aspen for the weekend.

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laughing_man
6 hours ago
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There's no such thing as a nonprofit. It's really just a question of whether or not the money goes to the shareholders or the management.
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