Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 rav4 hybrid
172 points
1 hour ago
| 20 comments
| arkadiyt.com
| HN
nurple
1 hour ago
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> Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota. However, if you use a wired USB connection then it does not do that (see the discussion here and elsewhere), so I exclusively use CarPlay via USB.

The problem with this is that both carplay and android auto capture their own vehicle telemetry. So even though the car is not able to use your phone as a general data pipe, Google and Apple still get access to this data when you're connected.

They are both very cagey with how they talk about this (or don't).

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Angostura
3 minutes ago
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Standard Carplay is essentially an additional screen for your phone - your existiing privacy settings carry across. What's your concern?
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embedding-shape
26 minutes ago
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And once you've gotten rid of Google and Apple, your telecom company tracks you, your CC payments help track you and even cameras in public do.

It's hard to not want to throw your hands in the air screaming "whatever" when almost everything you use in public is somehow used to track you either as you move around, or in the future.

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dualvariable
2 minutes ago
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This is one of those things that can't ever be solved with individual solutions but needs to be solved through legislation and standards, and ideally a fundamental right to privacy (and a fundamental redefinition of what privacy means when it comes to corporate surveillance of individuals).
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drnick1
44 minutes ago
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You need GrapheneOS to sever the link to Google. You can also deny specify apps and services Internet access.
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zackify
1 hour ago
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I use android auto through grapheneos thankfully! this is crazy!
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b00ty4breakfast
46 minutes ago
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this sounds like donning a TNT vest to diffuse a bomb
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andrepd
1 hour ago
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Can you clarify? Does it feed it bullshit data? Because android auto expects car telemetry data which it streams to Google's servers. Which is a big no-no for me for obvious reasons.
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piaste
28 minutes ago
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It doesn't stop Android Auto from doing whatever with the car data, but it's sandboxed to have no more default privileges than a regular app, so it can be denied access to your phone's data by default (apps, contacts, etc.). Wireless AA will only work if you grant it extra privileges; wired AA does not need them.

You can also "firewall" AA via something like TrackerControl, this would let you block connections to eg. Google Analytics servers without denying network access altogether (which would likely cause AA to stop working). I've only used AA with short-term rentals so I didn't spend too much time exploring these options.

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andrepd
8 minutes ago
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Fair enough. Streaming my location and an OBD dump to Google whenever I'm driving is a non-starter for me, so I'll stick with the aux cord!
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everdrive
42 minutes ago
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What about if it's just paired as an audio device rather than through an app?
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embedding-shape
25 minutes ago
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Don't get CarPlay/Android Auto that way though, so no navigation/maps for example.
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gruez
23 minutes ago
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>if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota

Source? Can bluetooth devices do that without the user's knowledge?

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MRPockets
15 minutes ago
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I assume that the original article statement is referring to connecting to CarPlay/Android Auto wirelessly, not simply connecting via Bluetooth for a speaker-type setup. But I do not know that this is the case. Certainly, I would assume all privacy bets are off if you connect CarPlay/Android Auto in any manner.
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arkadiyt
1 hour ago
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In a perfect world they wouldn't collect it either, but I'd rather Apple have it than the car manufacturer (or rather, only Apple vs both Apple and the car manufacturer)
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downrightmike
1 hour ago
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They are cagey because they get nearly $100k upfront with crazy interest rates, and then they make a ton of money through their spyware.
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pfortuny
1 hour ago
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Honest question: what do you mean?
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downrightmike
1 hour ago
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You pay inflated prices for the car and then they still steal and sell your data. This isn't hard to understand, same thing smart TV mfg do.
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Jblx2
16 minutes ago
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$100k is in Canadian dollars? I just added almost every accessory/package and option to the the 2026 GR Sport Plug-in Hybrid RAV4, and it came out to $55,821. If there were options that were nearly identical, I only added the most expensive one. So I only added one hammock ($340) and one of the Pelican Dayventure Backpack Cooler ($301). This includes the dog first-aid kit, and the human first-aid kit. Maybe all the options will come through this link:

https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/...

...maybe there is a lot of dealer markup in your area?

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epicide
1 hour ago
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I think you mean "subsidized" instead of "inflated".
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Rooster61
56 minutes ago
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No, they meant inflated. Cars are quite expensive right now, and dealers are notorious for raking in cash through financing. If they were subsidized, prices would be lower to increase user base, as in the aforementioned dynamic present in the current smart TV market.

I think the inital point was that car manufacturers/dealers are double dipping through initial cost/interest AND data harvesting.

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alext5
56 minutes ago
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Both an high end tv or a car are expensive items where the manufacturer shouldn’t be making additional income on your personal data.

A free 55 inch tv supported by ads would be subsidized. A big ticket item price likely does not change even if it intrudes on your privacy and the manufacturer makes additional income on your data. In that sense it’s not subsidized it’s just greedy business practices.

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everdrive
43 minutes ago
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The 2024 Ford Maverick has a single fuse for the telematics unit that you can remove without throwing a code or an error. No idea if this remained true after the 2025-2026 refresh, but worth knowing.

https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/forum/threads/telematics-f...

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xattt
25 minutes ago
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Kias have a “Massachusetts mode” flag hidden behind a service menu (that needs a dealer code) that disables telematics at the owner’s request. However, the service menu pin also has timeout protection that will inject a waiting period between retries so there is no guessing.

I don’t think there’s convincing my dealer to get into the service menu and disabling it.

I would presume that other manufacturers might have this as well.

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drnick1
40 minutes ago
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Older Toyotas also had a DCM fuse, and this was the easiest way to get rid of telemetry. I am not sure if partially disassembling the dash and physically removing the DCM is now necessary.
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arkadiyt
34 minutes ago
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There's still a fuse for the DCM even in this car but:

- It has an internal battery and will keep running for quite a while after pulling the fuse. This is a safety feature in case you get in a crash that disconnects the 12V battery

- It will break your in-car microphone as discussed. Repairing that requires opening up the dash

- That won't do anything for disconnecting the GPS antenna

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ezfe
27 minutes ago
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> Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota

What is the basis for this claim? I've never heard of this capability.

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Animats
3 minutes ago
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How good a position can you get from GPS today in receive only mode?

You can download and store Open Street Map for individual states. Map data doesn't have to come in over the air. That's not the problem. It's enhancing GPS with cell phone tower data that's the problem. That requires a cell connection.

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stackghost
43 seconds ago
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>That requires a cell connection.

Technically it only requires an antenna that can listen on the LTE band (or even GSM). Trilaterating based on cell towers with a hackRF or other SDR is a fun exercise.

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ezfe
24 minutes ago
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Just a note about Toyota specifically - There are many blog posts and articles out there alleging that Toyota shares your data with insurance companies.

As I own two Toyota's I have read through these carefully and consistently the theme is that the owner was opted into this program without knowing it (likely by the sales person clicking through setup steps to enable every feature). If you are not opted in, I have seen no evidence they share driving data.

When I set up my Toyotas, the app clearly walks through the programs they have and you must click either "yes/opt in" or "no/opt out" for each program. It is not opted in by default.

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Barbing
48 minutes ago
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> Unfortunately I think it’s only a matter of time before the modem and GPS become more deeply integrated into the car (making this blog post infeasible), or cars have more drastic failure modes when the modem/GPS is removed, or anti-right-to-repair laws get passed to further clamp down on this behavior.

Guaranteed

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venussnatch
1 hour ago
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What is the suspected method of Bluetooth communication?

Afaik phones do not share their internet blindly to Bluetooth devices.

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max8539
1 hour ago
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Also thought about it. It’s possible, but requires enabling hotspot on the phone. Without it, it will not share internet via BT.
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buran77
55 minutes ago
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The author probably means CarPlay and Android Auto. In wireless mode they share the phone's internet connection. The adapter linked in the article is a CarPlay adapter, not plain BT.
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max8539
14 minutes ago
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Seems like this way of using CarPlay isn’t documented. Bluetooth is used for discovery and WiFi/USB for CarPlay communication but not for providing car and internet access. Using users’ phone data without notice could be noticeable by users as well…
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fragmede
1 hour ago
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It would also require that my phone not show my car using the hotspot, when it does show my laptop, and also for my cellphone plan to not show that usage (I have limited hotspot data), which is theoretically possible, but now we're talking three companies having to collude in a totally undetectable fashion, which seems a little far fetched.
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jeroenhd
1 hour ago
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Bluetooth PAN seems to work pretty seamlessly once you've paired your phone and set it up. It's possible some kind of "seamless hotspot" functionality is remotely activating PAN on a paired device.
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lapetitejort
8 minutes ago
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If you are wary of all the smart features in your next car purchase, consider buying a bicycle. We do not have to entertain the creeping invasion of our privacy
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chromadon
11 minutes ago
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I wonder if insurance would refuse to pay out in the event of an accident due to this modification?
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swader999
13 minutes ago
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If you get into enough trouble they'll get all your phone data and cell tower pings or your passenger's.
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chzblck
25 minutes ago
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I cannot imagine the paranoia that it would take for me to go through this process.
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summermusic
59 minutes ago
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I dread the day I will have to start doing this when the 2015 vehicle I have finally goes
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fnord77
3 minutes ago
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[delayed]
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amelius
31 minutes ago
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Modern cars are like Smart TVs.
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IdiotSavage
27 minutes ago
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Soon: ads on your HUD while you wait in traffic.
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placatedmayhem
14 minutes ago
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at-fates-hands
44 seconds ago
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Last year we got a rental car when we were in Florida. When we first left the airport, we were using the navigation app that was in the car. First red light? Navigation app suddenly goes black and a commercial starts playing. My wife and I both look at each other like, "WTF is going on?!?" Light turns green commercial clips out and the map app starts working again. We waited to see if it happened at the next light. Sure enough, the last commercial finished and another started as the light turned green.

Tuned it off and used our phones from there to the hotel. That was the last time we used a rental cars navigation.

So yeah, its already happening.

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p00ter
1 hour ago
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There's going to be a lot of this going on in the future. RabbitLabs CAN Commander go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
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threecheese
1 hour ago
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I though this was just a crazy commenter, but here:

https://rabbit-labs.com/product/cancommander/

Crazy commenter, tell us a little about this. Can I use it on any Can bus?

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fullstop
27 minutes ago
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From what I understand the CAN traffic on my vehicle is encrypted. Clearly this does not apply to all of the traffic, as I can fetch some OBD2 data with a generic dongle.
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dingdingdang
1 hour ago
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Excellent practical guide and pictures, if OP is around on this thread: well done! Your future self is going to appreciative too when this needs repeating at some point!
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bee_rider
40 minutes ago
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Who’s responsible for presenting the privacy policy to passengers of a car, anyway?
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java-man
1 hour ago
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Maybe two metal pins through the GPS and the cellular antenna coaxial cables would do the trick?
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foobarian
1 hour ago
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You would be surprised how leaky RF can be and how hard to completely suppress. There is a reason things like anechoic chambers and test labs are very expensive.
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amelius
30 minutes ago
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Just hold it wrong. That should do the trick.
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java-man
1 hour ago
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Leaky - possibly, but we are dealing with the real world where you have plenty of background noise. The cell tower will likely fail to receive the signal.
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rasz
20 minutes ago
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In case of Subaru turning off 2G made their modems keep trying to reconnect 24/7 draining and killing battery. Subaru refused replacing batteries killed by defective car.
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kevin_thibedeau
1 hour ago
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You just need to cap the connectors with a terminator.
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java-man
1 hour ago
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It might easier to find the cable than disassemble the car to get to the terminals.
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vablings
30 minutes ago
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Usually, the whole antenna is behind the rear-view mirror between the glass and mirror. Often glued together
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aframemodular
1 hour ago
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Great guide! After getting to the end, I had no idea what AirPlay was so I looked it up... bro, all this effort to avoid telemetry and you are using an iPhone XD
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TheChaplain
41 minutes ago
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If you live in the EU and bought the car there, the GDPR still applies, even if data is sent to Toyota in Japan.

You have the full right to view and ask for deletion.

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wiml
12 minutes ago
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You'd think people would be doing that already. Has anyone posted details?

Can you skirt the GDPR by making it hard to discover who you need to ask?

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