Linux security mailing list 'almost unmanageable'
77 points
1 hour ago
| 7 comments
| theregister.com
| HN
l1k
52 minutes ago
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Fun fact (or not so fun if you're a subscriber):

Somebody is spamming kernel mailing lists under the name Marian Corcodel with a 26 MByte message multiple times per day containing a collection of nonsensical patches. Looks AI-generated, perhaps with the intention to poison LLMs. This has been going on for a few days now.

https://lore.kernel.org/all/CAGg4U=GNtCObd_Nbm_1Rr5FEvPb69Yz...

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probably_wrong
40 minutes ago
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I'd warn HN users not to click on that link simply because it will load a 26Mb message that will likely cause quite a strain on kernel.org's servers if everyone here does it.
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leonidasrup
24 minutes ago
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OuterVale
9 minutes ago
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I don't think needlessly straining the Internet Archive's servers is any better.
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grosswait
4 minutes ago
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Will clicking on this link download a 26MB message putting extra load on archive.org's servers?
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st_goliath
54 minutes ago
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Here's the actual mailing list post: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CAHk-=wi+JvcuKF2NaD_rGiYrwkR6rx...

Actual context: Linux 7.1-rc4 release, Linus remarked on a specific documentation change.

The Register somehow turned this into an "article" that says a lot less with roughly the same number of words, and provides "context" by linking to a number of unrelated articles.

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throawayonthe
3 minutes ago
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here is what seems to be the relevant documentation: https://docs.kernel.org/process/security-bugs.html

see "If you resorted to AI assistance to identify a bug, you must treat it as public."

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Sweepi
1 hour ago
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"Torvalds' remarks contrast with recent comments from fellow kernel maintainer Greg Kroah-Hartman, who recently told The Register that AI has become an increasingly useful tool for the FOSS community."

Does it? Both points can be true at the same time.

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ses1984
1 hour ago
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Linus also said

“AI tools are great, but only if they actually help, rather than cause unnecessary pain and pointless make-believe work,” he wrote. “Feel free to use them, but use them in a way that is productive and makes for a better experience.”

So I think the closing remark from the register isn’t really appropriate given the context from the quotes they pulled.

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j16sdiz
6 minutes ago
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Torvalds didn't say AI isn't useful. He is saying everybody use AI to file same duplicate bug report causing extra churn.
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renegade-otter
18 minutes ago
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I will argue that ON AVERAGE, humans are lazy, and will use LLMs to generate walls of text and code. We like the easy way out - just pop a pill. Here we have a technology that can finally help us manage the crippling firehose of data, and instead, we are going to make it much worse. As expected.

A few of us will actually use these tools to reduce toil and achieve something useful.

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orthoxerox
11 minutes ago
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AI can amplify your intelligence just as easily as it can amplify your stupidity. All while telling you how smart and brilliant you are.
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happytoexplain
1 hour ago
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I mean, they are two (of many) contrasting results of AI. The writer didn't say "contradict". But I agree they probably could have chosen better wording.
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olive-n
18 minutes ago
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I like to imagine that LLM's ability to optimize code is like an extension of the training-loop in deep learning. The loss function is some kind of metric representing security and/or performance (or the lack of it) of the code and we use the LLM as the gradient/diff generator to iterate in batches over the code and fine tune it.

Imagine the current state being for the most part a collection of local maxima in security. To push the system in a more optimal state, you either need skilled people and time to overcome the barrier to a new local maximum or you throw AI at it and evaluate whether you land in a more optimal state.

I think after some time of turbulent exploit/patch cycles we will reach a stable state again, where the code converges against a new local minimum that even with AI requires significant effort (time and tokens) to overcome. Or ideally a global maximum.

With time, the LLMs improve, so the diffs/gradients get better and we will be able to reach optimal points for any software faster.

My problem with the idea is that apparently it is assumed that OSS contributors and especially maintainers will generously donate their time to get this machinery into a state that makes the optimization loop work well - just for the AI labs to turn around and sell access to the optimized models for increasingly larger amounts of money.

AI generated code can be great. Hand rolled code can be bad. The rules are the same in both cases. Make sure your code changes are focused (no random changes just because you happen to be in the file/dir or notice something) and make sure you don't break anything else along the way.

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new_account_100
1 hour ago
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AI (read: LLM technology) is the most powerful spam weapon ever invented.
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stabbles
1 hour ago
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Isn't it mostly the medium that's problematic? With an issue tracker it's easier to close as duplicate
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dgellow
6 minutes ago
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You still spend time identifying duplicates and doing triage. That can be very significant for a project like Linux.

Interestingly enough doing that type of triage is something LLMs are actually great at

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Aurornis
48 minutes ago
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An open visibility tracker would be a goldmine for finding new exploits before a fix is even available.

From what I’ve seen many of the AI bug search operators are newer to security research. They’re burning their tokens trying to find kernel bugs as their claim to fame before other people with AI tools find them first. They don’t spend time de-duplicating their own bugs.

Some of them may not be coming from real people. There are honeypot repos that are entirely fake and only have folders of simple files with clear security problems. They collect automated reports they get from all of the AI bots that people are running.

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smallerfish
46 minutes ago
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So make it a closed issue tracker with a public email gateway. Get Anthropic to donate LLM time to classify and combine incoming reports.
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throwaway85825
43 minutes ago
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If the LLM hallucinates bugs what makes you think any classification won't be hallucinated?
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quuxplusone
48 seconds ago
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The issue highlighted in Linus's message isn't that the LLM is hallucinating fake bugs; it's that 100 people running the same LLM on the same codebase find the same real bug 100 times, and if they all send it to the private security mailing list, it's (1) unmanageably high volume and (2) stupid security theater [because by definition any bad actor with the same LLM would find that bug — it's effectively public at that point].
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cduzz
1 hour ago
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If the AI is awesome at identifying security bugs in the linux kernel, it likely can also identify if the thing it's found is similar to something that is already found in the security mailing list?

Or, put another way -- what flags the duplicate? The filer or the system? If my cheese factory is measured by the volume of cheese instead of the quality, I'll churn out the cheese even if it's sloppy duplicated cheese. And that is the case if a person has to flag a new ticket as "same as this" or not.

What's that law that says that any sufficiently large problem turns into a moderation problem?

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crote
42 minutes ago
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The problem is that the tech companies are paying their research/marketing departments for headlines that go "Researcher uses powerful new Saga 6.2 release to find 597 kernel vulnerabilities! (Can your company afford NOT getting their $1000/month subscription?)", not for headlines that go "Researcher spends $50.000 to find 597 bugs, then spends $25.000 figuring out 540 of them are duplicates".

Unless the kernel community starts banning & publicly shaming repeat offenders, there's zero incentive for them to put any effort in filtering out duplicates. They are mostly doing it for marketing after all, not out of a genuine interest in making the kernel better.

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fiedzia
10 minutes ago
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> it likely can also identify if the thing it's found is similar to something that is already found in the security mailing list?

It can not because this mailing list is not public.

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flumes_whims_
26 minutes ago
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> “AI detected bugs are pretty much by definition not secret, and treating them on some private list is a waste of time for everybody involved – and only makes that duplication worse because the reporters can't even see each other's reports.”
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cduzz
17 minutes ago
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Ah; so it _is_ a tool problem. It is _also_ a moderation problem.

One could ban orgs that flood the zone with AI generated trash, but is there some potential middle ground where there are sets of filters to identify duplicated bugs, and possibly just internally dump "AI spam" to a lower queue?

This seems like the sort of problem I'd addressed in the 90s with killfiles and spamassassin. In other words, can't the ingestion just go through some filters to shield the humans at the end of the pipe?

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stonogo
24 minutes ago
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And with a mailing list you don't even have to do that! The problem doesn't really change, because you have to figure out whether it is a duplicate before you can mark it as duplicate, and that's the 'managing' part of 'unmanageable'.
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newswasboring
11 minutes ago
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> Torvalds' remarks contrast with recent comments from fellow kernel maintainer Greg Kroah-Hartman, who recently told The Register that AI has become an increasingly useful tool for the FOSS community

Thats kinda a misrepresentation. They are talking about two different things. Linus is trying to point out incorrect use of a tool while GKH is praising a correct use. This sentence felt weird at the end of the article, kind like rage bait. And I took it :P.

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