New York to tax luxury second homes in NYC
77 points
by geox
1 hour ago
| 9 comments
| apnews.com
| HN
mikeweiss
49 minutes ago
[-]
Good! Second homes in any region with low inventory should be taxed...
reply
dlenski
7 minutes ago
[-]
We have similar taxes in major cities in Canada (including both metro and provincial taxes here in Vancouver).

Housing is still massively squeezed and unaffordable for many in the Vancouver metro area, but the taxes definitely have encouraged some homeowners to sell or rent their properties, especially foreign investors, and their seem to be few or no downsides for people of middle-class and even moderately-affluent incomes.

I doubt that NYC will lose too much sleep over the protestations from extraordinarily wealth plutocrats.

reply
ch4s3
42 minutes ago
[-]
It seems like a place like Manhattan might benefit from first up-zoning the low slung sections that are currently 4-8 stories.

My point here is that I'd start with trying to build enough housing before spending political capital on marginal things that neither unlock supply nor generate much revenue.

reply
nickv
32 minutes ago
[-]
You're right, when I think of a place that has an overabundance of 2 floor single family homes, I think of Manhattan.
reply
asdff
21 minutes ago
[-]
It isn't that which is the issue. It is the fact greenwich village has been at the same height since even before Don Draper's time. You see, the suburban enclaves of long island and upstate and new jersey and the comparatively more built up areas of manhattan do have the exact same issue with regards to housing, and that is there is little room in the zoned capacity to legally add any more housing.

In 1961, NYC adopted a zoning plan that saw zoned capacity reduced by 80%. These sort of changes to zoning happened around the country in the 1960s and 70s in response to red lining being made illegal. If you can't prevent black people from living near you by law, maybe you could instead prevent anyone from living near you and guarantee a supply side crisis such that the wealthiest individuals in the economy are who can afford to be your neighbors, and in 1961 surely they won't be black. You should look up the median income differences between a white nycer and a black nycer today, it is shocking. Median household wealth for whites just within the scope of new york state, not even at city resolution, is nearly 15x higher (1).

Today, 80 years later, we have kept the racist-by-transitive-property laws on the books all over the country. And as such, cities remain highly segregated by both race and class. Civil right era in terms of housing was essentially a failure to achieve any change from this status quo.

1. https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-racial-wealth-gap-in...

reply
javanissen
11 minutes ago
[-]
Do you live here? I do, and I’m astounded by the number of 1- to 3-story buildings and surface parking lots (!) dotted throughout Manhattan, especially outside of the skyscraper clusters in midtown and downtown.

There is an unbelievable shortage of housing that is solvable only by increasing supply and building upwards. It’s not even single-family homes; why are there any one-story buildings in the lower east side?

reply
ianm218
15 minutes ago
[-]
It has a huge amount of areas that are underdeveloped relative to demand. Many areas with height restrictions that block basically all new developments. For example West Village is one of the most in demand zip codes in the entire world caps new builds around 80 feet. East village caps housing @ mid rise so new grads who live there spend half their income on housing.

He is right.

reply
ch4s3
26 minutes ago
[-]
You'll notice I specifically said 4 to 8 story buildings.
reply
cyberax
10 minutes ago
[-]
LOL. Why not just build bunkhouses and then rent out bunk beds there? For a cool $5000 a month. Because that's the end goal, isn't it? Manhattan is _already_ one of the densest cities in the world.

It needs a good _downzoning_ to be liveable again.

reply
Daishiman
35 minutes ago
[-]
In Manhattan the low zones are due to the soil not being good for higher construction. Lower Manhattan and midtown are made of basalt stone that is extremely strong and apt for skyscrapers.
reply
ch4s3
27 minutes ago
[-]
Bedrock is only a little lower in the "Midtown Gap", and in any case a lot of those 4 story buildings could be 8-10.
reply
organsnyder
10 minutes ago
[-]
I'm guessing it would be tough to make the numbers work demolishing a 4-story building and building one that's only 2-2.5x the square footage, especially with today's interest rates.
reply
nxk
47 minutes ago
[-]
Yup
reply
dvngnt_
41 minutes ago
[-]
Zohran is doing too much. I hope he at least leaves the second yachts alone.
reply
onlyrealcuzzo
40 minutes ago
[-]
First it's the second yachts...

Then it's the first yachts!

reply
mynameajeff
24 minutes ago
[-]
Just wait till he comes for the private jets and helicopters. How will the average resident ever commute to work under such a steep financial burden?
reply
saulpw
9 minutes ago
[-]
reply
stavros
20 minutes ago
[-]
What's the context here? Isn't he doing enough?
reply
bestouff
5 minutes ago
[-]
It's sarcasm (and I enjoyed it).
reply
stavros
4 minutes ago
[-]
Yes, and I'm asking what the context for that sarcasm is.
reply
bsimpson
18 minutes ago
[-]
Reactionary taxes like this have a tendency to be ill-considered and have unintended side effects.

NY also has a 1% penalty on paying more than $1 million for housing, which was probably enacted to proletariat applause when $1 million was still considered a lot of money. Now it distorts the value of entry level housing in NYC, where you'll have a hard time finding anything more than a studio apartment for $1 million. High closing costs and similar distortions mean people tend to lose money on housing in NYC unless it's held for many years.

$5 million is expensive enough that this probably won't add much housing stock in the short term. Still, politicians never seem to think through the consequences of headline-grabbing tax policies.

reply
braiamp
14 minutes ago
[-]
Even in worse case scenario, which this isn't, the affected persons would at most try to cheat the system. This proposal is really narrow to non-primary residences, that are also very valuable. None of which will affect 99.999% of the population.
reply
saulpw
12 minutes ago
[-]
Gosh, 1% on $1m, that's almost $10k! I can see that how would discourage homeownership and distort the market.

Actually wait, I can't.

reply
webdood90
8 minutes ago
[-]
Who are you protecting here?

You realize a very small subset of the population can afford a million dollar home, let alone a five million dollar home?

The majority of the city does not give a shit.

reply
tlogan
32 minutes ago
[-]
I assume this will be challenged in court immediately. Does anyone understand whether it is likely to survive those legal challenges?
reply
citadel_melon
5 minutes ago
[-]
Property taxes already exist. There is no obvious reason why this particular property tax would be legally problematic.

The tax is also likely politically difficult to counter. Consider how limited in scope these taxes are, how the tax revenue benefits residents who live in NYC through providing more revenue for services without taxing residents at all, and how the only constituent the taxes negatively affects are non-residents (aka it’s non-trivial to argue that these people should even be considered constituents) who benefit from the services the city offers through stable apartment prices that nicely store their wealth yet provide little value in return.

The only rebuttal one could conceive is the value these high-net-worth individuals altruistically provide the city through developing office space and giving jobs to the city is not worth risking, but that is like saying the tail wags the dog. The reason these CEOs go to NYC is because that is where the talent and economic clustering is: if these high-net-worth individuals could get the talent they need to run their firms in Miami and Austin, they would have done so already. They have tried and they have failed up until this point.

Regardless, a claim into the future in such a complex system such as the markets and the judicial system (especially a common law system) always relies on induction which is never going to be deterministic. However, this tax is just another property tax meaning it likely will stand in court. Additionally, given that the opposition has very weak rebuttals against a well-versed counterparty implies the legislature or other political machinery won’t have a strong enough incentive to fight this tax.

reply
zaphod12
29 minutes ago
[-]
NYS already has tax breaks for one's primary residence which varies by income and a tax on the sale of homes >$1Mil. Given how entrenched those are, I have trouble imagining a way in which this new tax is incongruous with existing rules.
reply
bix6
40 minutes ago
[-]
California next please! If you aren’t in your home 9 months of the year you can stay in a hotel. Thanks!
reply
jmclnx
41 minutes ago
[-]
> an initiative to appease Mayor Zohran Mamdani and liberal voters

Taxing the rich is not a Liberal thing, but the Rich is calling it that because they do not want to pay any taxes at all.

He was elected because people are starting to feel real pain and seeing the ultra rich paying far less taxes then they are. If it was up to me, I would tax all the second homes above 5 million USD and add a Luxury Tax on all valuable Autos too.

reply
jjtheblunt
18 minutes ago
[-]
i am not in NY, but aren't yearly auto registrations scaled significantly by the value of the auto?

that seems to be true in Arizona, for example.

reply
giantg2
22 minutes ago
[-]
"seeing the ultra rich paying far less taxes then they are."

Is this actually true? I thought looking at the aggregates that the top 10% pay something like 1/3rd of all income/cap gain taxes.

reply
dwa3592
12 minutes ago
[-]
Last year year Jeff bezos and I both paid taxes for the year of 2024. The percentage he paid on the money he made is far less than I did. I gave higher share of my income to the government than he did. Bezos's true tax rate was less than 1% and mine was around 25%.

Link - https://itep.org/washington-post-rich-not-paying-fair-share/

reply
WarmWash
44 seconds ago
[-]
>(including unrealized gains)

They wrote that whole article out just to make it all meaningless with 3 words in parenthesis.

"The plane crashed and everyone lived! (not including those who died)"

reply
giantg2
3 minutes ago
[-]
It seems your article is saying the same sort of thing I already stated - "The share of taxes paid by the richest 1 percent (24 percent)", right?

You are talking about effective taxes rates, which are different. To discuss that, I would have liked to see a bit more detail in the article, like what the income sources were and the deductions and losses to offset gains. I think changes around capital gains and loans against equities could use some adjustments. The other taxes like payroll are basically moot as Bezos's payroll income is only about $90k per year anyways.

reply
bryanlarsen
19 minutes ago
[-]
Top 10% is the upper middle class, not the ultra rich. A successful surgeon making $1M per year is paying well over 40% a year in taxes, while Bezos is paying 1%.
reply
WarmWash
3 minutes ago
[-]
Bezos pays 40% too.

His assets are not income. Just like your assets are not taxed.

Ok, but he does that loan-against-assets hack!

Well the fact is that those loans eventually need to be paid, so at some point he will pay that 40% (unless he does the step-up basis hack when he dies)

Ok, but he should be paying annually like everyone else!

Well, technically he is, his assets, the company Amazon, pays a lot of taxes annually. The government views Amazon as a money printer, states get their sales taxes, and the federal government gets their income taxes. All of which originate with Amazon.

All of which is to say, that the uppe-middle/upper-class, the successful surgeon, is the one that needs to be paying more taxes to equilibriate society.

reply
giantg2
13 minutes ago
[-]
Do you have the data for that? I was wondering about tax paid (as dollars not effective rate- I know effective tends to me lower for HNW individuals due to accountants and other financial professionals they can afford).
reply
sbarre
11 minutes ago
[-]
> I thought looking at the aggregates that the top 10% pay something like 1/3rd of all income/cap gain taxes.

If we're bringing receipts, how about you start? Do you have the data for this initial statement of yours?

reply
giantg2
1 minute ago
[-]
This is close enough (posted here by another).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48185123

reply
busterarm
36 minutes ago
[-]
The top 1% of NYC residents contribute 40-48% of all personal income tax collected in NYC. When you extend that to Top 2.5% you cross 51%.

Personal Income Tax accounts for around 31% of collected NYC tax revenue.

"The rich" also pay property tax. NYC's poorer residents generally don't have property to pay tax on. Everyone pays sales tax equally.

So how exactly are the ultra rich paying "less taxes"?

reply
9dev
28 minutes ago
[-]
This claim is often repeated but simply misleading. Taxable income is only a tiny fraction of the wealth of ultra rich folks - many even take symbolic wages, because their real compensation happens in stock, which they can use to lend effectively infinite money. There's a great episode of the Ezra Klein Show on this topic too[0].

[0]: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Jjy4drElYHNMRtxVQPENR?si=5...

reply
AdrianB1
16 minutes ago
[-]
That does not address the point. You say they should pay even more to address the idea that very few people pay most of the taxes, what is the logic here?
reply
nickv
23 minutes ago
[-]
Because wealth is also distributed in a very lumpy way across the city.

154 residents of NYC own 33% of the entire wealth of the city... notice I didn't say 1%, I said top 154. They are not contributing 33% of the tax income to the city.

So yes, the ultra rich pay "less taxes" if you look at how much of the resident wealth they control.

Also, property taxes are significantly lower than appraised value and the richer you get the bigger the disparity. That Ken Griffin’s $238M penthouse pied-a-terre? It's assessed value is $9M. So yea, he's paying like $150k/yr in property taxes.

And finally, it is a known fact that sales tax definitely hits poor people harder (re: "everyone pays sale tax equally"). What you want to look at is what percentage of a person's post taxincome vs sales tax paid, because if you make like $60k/yr you're probably close to 60% of all post tax income paying some form of sales tax (you buy with all the money you make). If you have $2B, your percentage of "tax paid as sales tax" is significantly lower, because you don't typically spend a billion dollars the same way you spend $60k.

reply
AdrianB1
5 minutes ago
[-]
Wealth distribution is a false flag. Rain distribution across the globe is not equal, solar light distribution is not equal and they impact people's life more than wealth distribution. USA and the entire planet's population is at record high in living standards and wealth, but some people are still unhappy because not everything is perfectly equal and at zero entropy like the thermal death of the universe: this is more than illogical, it is just envy without limits.
reply
jjav
30 minutes ago
[-]
Surely you know this, but the rich are paying less percentage taxes relative to the money they have.
reply
busterarm
28 minutes ago
[-]
I'm familiar with the concept of crabs in a bucket, yes. That's why I left New York and abandoned my rent controlled apartment to do so.
reply
lovich
25 minutes ago
[-]
Oh shit, I didn’t realize the billionaires who can have multiple homes in Manhattan are crabs in the same bucket as us.

Luckily the law is much more egalatarian and bars the rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges or stealing bread.

reply
busterarm
23 minutes ago
[-]
NYC only has 154 billionaires. The percentage of NYC's second homes owned by NYC billionaires is fractional (59,000 total units).

No, this will disproportionately negatively affect middle-class people and families and fuck them hard.

> I didn’t realize the billionaires ... are crabs in the same bucket as us.

All of us go to the same place in the end my dude. Life is too short and too hard to spend all your time living by comparisons. I'm sure the people you're worried about are just as miserable for other reasons.

reply
lovich
18 minutes ago
[-]
If you have a second home in manhattan, you are not the middle class _and_ you can afford it.

If the idea of paying taxes affects your poor fragile mind so negatively then there is an easy solution where you can sell said extra home.

No one is being fucked hard by this other than people who are appalled at the thought that they need to contribute to society for the negative externalities they create, like accumulating excess shelter in regions with a dearth of housing capacity.

reply
2OEH8eoCRo0
29 minutes ago
[-]
Voters don't feel like it's a fair deal. Telling voters that their concerns aren't real is a losing strategy.
reply
busterarm
41 minutes ago
[-]
I strongly doubt that this is going to have the effect that they want it to. It won't raise the taxes that they expect it to. It won't free up inventory. It will halt construction.
reply
mbreese
50 seconds ago
[-]
I'm not sure it's that clear. If this halts construction of homes in the higher price ranges, then those construction crews will still need to do something. So, that might make it possible to find construction capacity for higher-density construction that otherwise wasn't available. Whether or not such a trickle-down effect will happen isn't guaranteed, but it's possible. It's also possible that no construction happens and we see a loss of jobs in the process.

It's a complex market and this is definitely a risk.

reply
galleywest200
37 minutes ago
[-]
Taxing second homes would halt construction? Plenty of people out there wish to own a first home, myself included.
reply
JuniperMesos
33 minutes ago
[-]
How will that tax result in more houses existing?
reply
stavros
19 minutes ago
[-]
It will result in fewer second homes existing, therefore more first homes.
reply
lovich
5 minutes ago
[-]
This guy thinks a tax on second homes in fucking NYC is going to disproportionately harm the middle class.

He is economically illiterate.

Edit: scratch that, he also mentioned leaving a rent controlled apartment because of a crabs in a bucket mentality. I think he’s lying to push his own political agenda which appears to be that of the rich never paying taxes.

I’ll lol if he’s some pleb like most of us and is just running defense for his “betters”

reply
busterarm
31 minutes ago
[-]
The cost of construction in _New York City_ generally sets a floor as far as who can afford to pay for it.

The per-apartment cost of construction in Manhattan is more than the retail price of my 3500sq ft house in near-rural South Carolina.

reply
BigTTYGothGF
2 minutes ago
[-]
> It will halt construction.

Why would that be the case?

reply
WarmWash
19 minutes ago
[-]
New York City rent exists at an equilibrium.

The draw for people to move there is so intense, that any draw downs in rent are met with upticks in immigration.

Adding housing stock in NYC is not like adding housing stock in Lawnsdale Ohio. Almost by definition you cannot out build the demand for housing.

reply
a_shovel
16 minutes ago
[-]
I don't think the demand for second homes worth over $5 million is a major driver of construction of new units in NYC.
reply
bix6
39 minutes ago
[-]
It’ll halt construction on luxury second homes? Wonderful!
reply
Daishiman
34 minutes ago
[-]
Those homes are built for money laundering anyway. Good riddance.
reply
tekla
26 minutes ago
[-]
I dunno why anyone thinks this matters. https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-pied-a-terre-tax-and...

"We find that, before adjusting for these factors, our choice of tax rates and brackets could raise almost exactly $500 million from a little over 11,200 properties. However, revenues could be reduced to between roughly $340 million and $380 million based on assumptions on exclusions for rented units and behavioral changes following the imposition of the tax."

It's all media feel goodsies but not actually do anything substantive.

reply
free_bip
24 minutes ago
[-]
So it'll still raise at least 300 million? Sounds like a great thing to me. I dunno why you think it doesn't matter.
reply
jonfw
22 minutes ago
[-]
I think that this has the benefit of both raising a non trivial amount of money as well as reducing housing demand from the wealthy in a supply constrained market
reply
AdrianB1
17 minutes ago
[-]
NY should tax anyone with any money until everyone leaves. Then abolish money, like in Star Trek, and live the utopia. I don't think this will happen during my lifetime, but I am not missing it either.
reply