Why I don’t vibe code
74 points
2 hours ago
| 13 comments
| jacobharr.is
| HN
Aurornis
1 hour ago
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I thought this was going to be an article about intelligent use of LLM tools without vibecoding, but it's actually entirely against LLMs altogether. The person who wrote it used a free trial of some tool (most likely not a frontier model) and then gave up forever when the trial ran out.

> I then tried using one of the AI tools to analyze my code in a project and a few other small tasks before it all came to an awkward halt. The system informed me that I had just run out of credits and I would need to provide a credit card to purchase more tokens I wanted to keep going.

> So you must believe me that the idea of paying a service in perpetuity so I could think just seemed so laughably absurd and horrific that I didn’t even bother giving them my card. I closed the laptop. I uninstalled the IDE and went back to using Emacs even.

I wholly support their personal choice. I am tired of articles from people who haven't used LLMs preaching about how it's all vibecoding, though.

Acting like LLM use is (EDIT: I meant is not) a spectrum between doing everything manually or handing control over to the LLM and vibecoding everything is a tired strawman argument.

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sergeym
44 minutes ago
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Regardless of the minimal time with LLMs, I think he hit major points on importance of clarity of abstractions, unreliability, shipping more features and working harder than even and losing touch with the underlying implementation.
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Aurornis
10 minutes ago
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If you are vibecoding an app without talking to anyone, those are problems.

This is still missing the point that LLM use isn't a binary choice between YOLO vibecoding or complete abstinence from LLM use.

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wvenable
1 hour ago
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I'm using Github copilot and I ran out of requests before the end of the month; this happens from time to time. But last month was the first time I decided to try the cheap models that were still accessible to me just to see what they were capable of. They're dumb as rocks.

I just don't know how many people have an overly negative opinion on AI assisted coding because they've just used the poor versions of these products given out for cheap/free. A similar critique is basing one's opinion on AI based on summary that Google provides for free in their search.

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satvikpendem
10 minutes ago
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Which models did you try? Open weight ones like Qwen and DeepSeek are getting pretty good, you just need the right harness, via OpenCode or Pi. I use Qwen 3.6 27B on my laptop with Unsloth Studio (Unsloth releases a lot of good quantizations and has great support for the latest features, recently released MTP support which can 2x token generation speed with no loss of accuracy).
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Aurornis
52 minutes ago
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This article comes from a niche of people who read a lot of news articles about LLMs (links scattered throughout) but have also avoided learning about the tools directly.

Like you said, the models available on free trials are usually toys compared to what developers use. Even Opus and GPT-5.5 are available on $20/month plans and you can buy a single month to try it out. The way they write about paying for a tool seeming "absurd and horrific" says it all about the level of actual research that went into their understanding. It's entirely based on news headlines.

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ge96
59 minutes ago
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Get your company to pay for it (points to head)
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wvenable
48 minutes ago
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Oh they do. And I could get them to pay even more but with the changes to copilot licensing, I'm not sure we will continue with it.
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ge96
45 minutes ago
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Is claude code any better for the value
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satvikpendem
11 minutes ago
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Codex is the best value for money now in my usage.
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tensor
1 hour ago
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I still use LLMs in a "no-vibe coding" way. Essentially I use a combination of the typical auto-complete and asking it to generate tests or individual structs/classes that I then heavily modify. But no line of code goes unread and unvetted by me.
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wieie
39 minutes ago
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This is healthy but what about the economics - what about when the prices rise? At what point do you become more thoughtful about spend?
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satvikpendem
9 minutes ago
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Open weight models are getting good.
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leptons
58 minutes ago
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I'm doing agentic coding with Claude Max, and it's like giving methamphetamine to a software developer.

When I run out of tokens, I pay for extra. It doesn't feel good, but I do it because I didn't write the codebase - the drug dealer did. Just one more "fix" and the code should be good to ship. Oh no, out of tokens again? Just one more "fix", and another.

And the code that the AI writes is sprawling and almost incomprehensibly complicated. Overly complicated. It's like a tweaker wrote it, on methamphetamine.

I can make this comparison because many years ago I once had an ex that put methamphetamine (I didn't realize they had an addiction) in one of my vitamin capsules "as a joke", and I was up for 36 hours straight writing convoluted code, and then writing voluminous notes about the code I had yet to write. I had never done that drug before, or since (why they are an ex). I don't even drink. After that episode I re-read what I had written and it was quite scattershot.

And now I get the same exact feeling when using AI to write code, or have it write tickets, or plan out something, etc.

I use these tools daily, and it's like putting a drug dealer between me and the code. Sure it writes a lot more code than I could write without it, but at what cost? I really don't like where this is headed. And I don't think most software developers using AI realize what is happening.

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threethirtytwo
40 minutes ago
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The future is local LLMs. So still methamphetamines but open source, free and an unlimited supply.
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leptons
24 minutes ago
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That won't really change anything, and in fact make the problem worse. It would be like "getting high on your own supply". Or just making meth at home so you can do it all the time. There's still a "drug dealer" in between you and the code. And you're going to have to pay $$$$ for hardware good enough to not slow you down. I've tried local models on an nVidia 4060 and it's pretty slow.
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eikenberry
1 hour ago
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> Acting like LLM use is a spectrum between doing everything manually or handing control over to the LLM and vibecoding everything is a tired strawman argument.

But isn't the strawman here was that it wasn't a spectrum. That they couldn't just use it some, but all or nothing.

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idle_zealot
58 minutes ago
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I think they meant "binary" rather than "spectrum".
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m0llusk
1 hour ago
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LLM usage has costs that are open ended and rising. The author describe how he relates to that as a relentless cheapskate. This isn't supposed to be a directly applicable lesson to most, just a point of reference for further consideration. How much higher will costs go? How realistic will simple finishing off an odd idea be if the tools are charging professional rates? Much of the logic now seems to be can therefore do without much reference to costs or risks.
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iLoveOncall
1 hour ago
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Imagine being disappointed that an article is NOT clickbait :|
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TheCleric
2 hours ago
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This is so good and almost exactly expresses my own thoughts. There's a narrow window where it's capable and fits a need of tedious work (mostly around automating tasks it would take me a bit to remember all the arguments and commands I'd have to chain together to do it). But a lot of it is the stuff I actually WANT to be doing. And solving the hard problems makes me a better developer just as training in the gym makes your body stronger.
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thangalin
1 hour ago
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I have the opposite experience:

* https://repo.autonoma.ca/repo/treetrek/tree/HEAD/render/rule... - syntax highlighting for 40 languages and file formats in ~10 minutes

* https://shufflenblues.com/expenses/ - real-time expenses progress updates with payment vendor API in ~30 minutes

* https://repo.autonoma.ca/repo/treetrek/tree/HEAD/git - real-time, cache-free raw Git reader implementation with cloning in ~5 days

* https://repo.autonoma.ca/repo/notanexus - PDFjs integration in ~3 days

However, these are likely not the "hard" problems you've mentioned. I feel like I can architect solutions at a higher-level now, without having to be completely caught up in many technical nuances. I'd rather not learn the extensive PDFjs API, for example, because it would take weeks of effort to understand.

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f311a
1 hour ago
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Why reinvent the wheel? Syntax highlighting, git. I'm pretty sure there are PHP libraries to do that.

Your syntax highlighting is very basic as well. Just ask LLMs to provide tests where it would fail to render correctly.

The first thing that comes to mind after looking at it: print("# not a comment")

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thangalin
43 minutes ago
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> Why reinvent the wheel?

Dependency-free, performance, FORTRAN, and it would take me more than ten minutes to find and integrate a highlighter that works across all of my code bases than having the LLM write one from scratch.

I searched for PHP-based Git libraries. All of them either invoked "git" using a system call or offered write abilities to the repo. I wanted a pure PHP solution that did not write to any files or invoke executable files (for security purposes). Maybe I didn't search long enough; at some point it becomes faster to tell the LLM what's wanted than to find a solution that fits.

> print("# not a comment")

Works correctly?

https://i.ibb.co/chgVkTz4/not-a-comment.png

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aogaili
1 hour ago
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Developers were not solving hard problems. The last decade was brutal—mainly frameworks, libraries, configurations, etc. The hard problems were in research.

And regarding the gym, sure, you might enjoy lifting dumbbells and solving puzzles to sharpen your brain. But that is not what engineers are hired for; they are hired to deliver a system using the best tools available. You can choose to farm by hand while the industry moves to using tractors, but sooner or later, you will be left behind.

And lastly, moving higher in abstraction allows us to tackle even more complex problems—I'd argue much more complex than the narrow puzzles we were facing before. Part of the resistance is simply an avoidance of facing higher-level complexity once the lower tier is automated.

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wieie
35 minutes ago
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These comparison don’t capture reality at all… wish people would stop doing them.
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aogaili
27 minutes ago
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Which part of reality does it not capture?

I've been in the field for 20 years, and I do think the situation is analogous. We might not like it or we might deny it, but the fact is, LLMs do automate the mechanical part of thinking. Some people might not accept that, but that is the reality given my subjective experience and the experience of many others who are using the tool.

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suddenlybananas
48 minutes ago
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Some developers solve hard problems and some don't. It depends entirely on your specific work.
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aogaili
23 minutes ago
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Indeed. But my argument is that a lot of those hard problems were, in fact, already solved; some people made a career out of solving the same problems over and over again. The fact that we have a tool to automate the lower tier of problem-solving doesn't mean we are no longer solving problems—it just means we are being asked to solve higher-order problems.
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kaffekaka
2 minutes ago
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But it also means we solve the same problems as before but faster, meaning less time is given to planning and thinking about what to actually build. This is a real problem where I work. Everyones grasp of what we are building and how it is connected is markedly worse nowadays.

We as a collective must learn the skill to put these new abilities to good use instead of just aiming to accelerate as much as possible.

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aogaili
20 minutes ago
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What is also interesting is that what our brains perceive to be hard is mainly because we didn't evolve to deal with these kinds of problems. But as it turns out, automating logical problems is much easier than folding clothes.
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SJMG
28 minutes ago
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Indeed, I solve hard problem for a living, but those are mostly design. The actual engineering often decomposes to gluing things together with limited need for new primitives.

There are hard problems at every level of abstraction. TAGE predictor optimization up to handling data-center failover.

I don't really have a challenge for people like the OP, I get it. I too dragged my feet, even mourned the death of a type of work I had grown fond of. Then I got over it and realized I might prefer the romance of riding a horse into town, but I also like that there's semi-trucks delivering fresh produce to my grocery store year round. The leverage available right now is frankly insane. The one thing an "old dev" [as he self-labeled] can be sure of is that the younger generations will not share these hang-ups to the same degree and it's those people who will inherit the burden of maintaining and furthering the digital world.

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aogaili
12 minutes ago
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I agree, and this matches my experience as well.

After 20 years of coding, I do understand the grief and the sense of loss—I felt it deeply myself. But as an engineer, I was also captivated by the capabilities of the new systems. Watching these systems mechanize the thinking I had been doing for years, struggle in areas I used to struggle with, and even outperform me in some areas is nothing short of a magical experience, leaving all the anxiety about the job aside. Personally, I chose to focus on that magic, to see how far we can push these tools and discover what their limits are.

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avgDev
1 hour ago
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I'm not paying someone to dig by hand if a machine makes the job quicker.
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extr
1 hour ago
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This is like reading an article "I Don't Drive Cars" that goes on like

- They're too expensive

- My buddy's 1995 Accord breaks down a lot

- Walking is healthier, plus you can stop and smell the roses

- I enjoy caring for my horse

- Sometimes you can get stuck in traffic

Fine if that's the way you want and can afford to live your life. But it is an exotic luxury belief. For those of us who are participating in the economy for real, the preference to not drive cars is not realistic.

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Aurornis
50 minutes ago
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You're going to get picked apart by people who live within walking distance or public transport distance of their office and don't understand why everyone else uses cars.

If you can walk to your office and the temperature is always between 50 and 70 degrees F you would probably think cars are crazy, too.

Which, funnily enough, proves the point even further. Some people get so comfortable in their bubble that they become unable to even comprehend why other people make other choices in other situations.

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extr
7 minutes ago
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You are picking at the analogy rather than engaging with the point. In the US, excluding areas with substantial public transportation infrastructure (realistically just a few major cities), car ownership is nearly universal. You can choose to not own a car as a lifestyle choice but you will be making concessions in other areas (the types of jobs and homes you have access to), similar to how refusal to use AI in software engineering at this point will substantially limit your options and ability to participate in the sector.
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tasuki
12 minutes ago
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What a weird analogy.

I almost always walk to the office. The temperature range is a lot bigger (freezing in winter to uncomfortably hot in summer), and it's like 3 km, which many people wouldn't dream of walking. When my work was farther I used to cycle.

Most people can easily get to work without a car. Just depends on goals and motivations. Car is definitely the laziest way.

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Aurornis
11 minutes ago
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> Most people can easily get to work without a car.

This is statistically very false.

It does a good job of proving my point that people within this bubble have a hard time understanding what the rest of the world is like.

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tasuki
6 minutes ago
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You're the one in a bubble.
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footy
37 minutes ago
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I live in Southwestern Ontario and I think cars are crazy.
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fffrantz
32 minutes ago
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Life without a car is not an exotic luxury at all, far from it, and all your points are just proving the point. Cars are a luxury, from the amount of taxes paid towards car infrastructure to the social costs associated with “the car culture” (insurance, public health, climate change, etc.). There are countless examples of urban and rural areas where alternative modes of transportation (LRT, bus, bicycle, ferries) are the norm and where cars are barely necessary/used. Not every place in the world is Anywhere, USA…
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rzmmm
1 hour ago
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Checked all five except "caring for my horse" is "tinkering with my bicycle".
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threetonesun
1 hour ago
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Yes everyone that lives in a major city that doesn't use a car is... not participating in the real economy.
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extr
1 minute ago
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If you do not live in one of the handful of areas in the US with public transportation infrastructure and also do not own a car you are an extreme outlier. Likewise, if you do not use AI tools to code, outside of some highly niche and specialized areas where perhaps they are still not effective, you are also an extreme outlier and are going to making significant tradeoffs to continue that practice.
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nix0n
39 minutes ago
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There are many trainfuls of people who still write code using traditional syntax-based IDE completion.
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extr
5 minutes ago
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If they want to continue that practice that's fine but they will quickly find that it severely limits their options for participating in the software industry.
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somewhereoutth
40 minutes ago
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But it is not a real economy is it? Vast sums of money are being spent subsidizing token processing with little to no tangible business benefit for the end user.

For those of us lucky enough to have the choice, the best bet is to sit it out for a year or so until it all comes crashing down, then re-engage with what's left of the software industry.

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hootz
53 minutes ago
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Is this bait? What are you talking about? I just use public transport to go to work. Basically, all of those points about cars are correct, except for the last one because here you almost always get stuck in traffic during rush hours. Often buses get to a destination faster than cars because of Bus Rapid Transit.

EDIT: Oh, you are talking just about the US. Then your comparison doesn't make any sense because LLMs are available worldwide.

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nh23423fefe
1 hour ago
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People write "i dont" when they mean "i cant"
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runarberg
1 hour ago
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Tbh. Those are all good reasons not to drive. I my self would add:

- They dangerous both to me as a driver, my passengers, and other road users, including pedestrians and bicyclists.

- They ruin cities which constantly have to accommodate ever increasing number of cars by destroying previously walkable neighborhoods to make room for roads and parking.

- They destroy our climate

- They are loud.

- Busses are nicer and I can read a book while riding the bus.

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extr
1 hour ago
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You're welcome to feel that way but it's a luxury belief. In reality, outside of a few (one?) major city in the US with public transportation infrastructure, you need a car. 92% of people own a car, higher if you exclude the dense urban areas I'm talking about.
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dpatterbee
1 hour ago
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People only need cars because people have cars and cars make cities worse for everyone outside of one. If nobody owned cars everyone would get by just fine. It's a race to the bottom.
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satvikpendem
8 minutes ago
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Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that today people need cars. In an ideal world I'd also love a European or Asian city model but American cities are not like that.
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runarberg
1 hour ago
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Car ownership is lowest in the lowest income brackets, and public transit ridership is highest among the lower income brackets. I really don‘t understand how you can reach your conclusion that not driving is a luxury. Data would suggest the exact opposite.

EDIT: To clarify on the public transit usage. The data is by-modal. Lower income levels are by far more likely to use road based public transit (such as busses), but high earners are more likely to live near a rail station and use rail based transit: https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/public-transit-access-and-inc...

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ge96
39 minutes ago
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I'm getting tempted to because I have so much work to do for my "startup" and after my 8hr day job I'm burnt. It's not even that I don't know what to do it's a lot of work... swift iPhone app, the api, the web app and gcp. get that feeling of being overwhelmed and also end of day brain just feels like shit, thinking I'll drink more caffeine after gym eg. 6:30 PM will see if I can sleep.
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pijon
24 minutes ago
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if you are serious about building a startup the best choice you could make is to learn to use these tools intelligently. ESPECIALLY if what you are building is an app…

virtually everyone building a startup uses these tools to automate a huge chunk of the work. you have no real chance otherwise.

my advice is to get on the cheap claude code sub and to check out the superpowers plugin.

the idea of the plugin is to help you create a “design” plan which promotoes to an “implementation” plan.

the former is a high level architecture decisions which YOU TAKE and use the agent to browse different approaches that might work.

the latter is the concrete steps the agent will take after you click execute. every file change documented, every migration required, etc. very easy to oversee it

just my 2 cents (as someone working on startups)

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ge96
14 minutes ago
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least suspicious account lol
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williamcotton
1 hour ago
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> However, the process was far more important than the product (again!). Not every whimsy needs to become a reality.

I mean, I get it, there's different kinds of people out there with different motivations, goals, spare time, etc.

But there's also a process of product design that I think the author is overlooking.

Lately I've been working and iterating on a number of DSLs, projects that might be a total waste of my time because they end up being poorly conceived or not very useful compared to a general purpose language!

I'm also working on a video game that is basically Magic: The Gathering meets StarCraft with Civilization style hex-grid conflict. It could be a total bust and entirely no fun to play (it's hard to tell if it's fun by itself because I enjoy working on the game while testing out the play patterns). It would suck to spend a couple of years on this if it's no good.

I very much enjoy the process of trying to figure out the best syntax and semantics for a new DSL or the process of iterating on gameplay elements when working on a game. The destination is also less important. I don't really expect anyone to use my DSLs or play my video games. I'm ultimately doing it for my own enjoyment.

Saying this, I am interested in the overall architecture and I've definitely learned from my mistakes, especially with creating DSLs. Like, having a TypeScript language server with a Rust runtime has some issues. It's kind of better to build the language server into the runtime so you're not maintaining multiple parsers, and depending on the language features, an additional pseudo-runtime in the language server.

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avens19
1 hour ago
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I don't agree with the overall conclusion of avoiding AI tooling but this was really wonderfully written
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eatsyourtacos
1 hour ago
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>but this was really wonderfully written

That's because AI wrote it to deter other AI from taking it's job

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beepbooptheory
1 hour ago
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I taught myself linux/coding/servers because there was a long period of time where all I had was a chromebook for school, but I still wanted to explore this thing called "pure data" that i'd heard about, and thought I could make art with it. I distinctly remember being continually amazed at how you could get so many things for free, if you know where to look. And yeah.. once I found emacs it was all over. To this day I am definitely going to always go "the hard way" where I can instead of pay any SaaS even $5 a month. In my head its like: "I am a mechanic, or at least, I can get by as one, why would I take my car to the shop and pay money??"

I know its not rational, but it would be pretty darn terrible in my brain to pay for an IDE. Even more unimaginable to me to pay $100 a month for something...

All to say, "cheapskate"-ness from TFA really resonated with me, I don't see the sentiment around a lot.

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chroma_zone
36 minutes ago
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Yep. If it weren't for cheap / freely available tools (and their limitations) I wouldn't be where I am today. I think about this every time I make a tool of my own.
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mattas
34 minutes ago
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This is what I call trad coding.
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jma24
1 hour ago
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It's a really interesting PoV, and one I'm in polar opposition to.

Context engineering is allowing me to do things I've always wanted to do but don't have the time/energy. I'm writing in C++, assembly, Rust, Go. I'm fucking with boot loaders and all kinds of things.

It's brought me a far greater understanding of how cryptography, GPUs, CUDA, Apple Metal - all topics I have a vague interest in but have no time to work on.

The current raft of LLM models are genius children. It's like that 15 year old at college. But I have 30 years of experience and a genius child is pure power in my hands.

And it's a genius child that never gets tired. For a few hundred bucks a month I can have 3 geniuses working on my ideas through the night. Last night they wrote 20 different research theses on a topic and benchmarked them all. Then combined them into a best of breed algorithm better than anything that has been done before. It's an amazing world we live in.

I don't write this to throw mud at OP - they are entitled to their opinion. Merely to point out the contrast.

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retinaros
1 hour ago
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To experienced devs. Why are you enjoying vibecoding? It is soulless and the job is really becoming unbearable having to discuss with an agent that alternates between “good at” and totally consensual and low iq.it feels miserable to have a few turns then seeing the tool Became so bad and so low iq that you stuck in doing things garder than if you did it by yourself

I get the conversational aspect and value of it I just dont get people saying “I dont code anymore I manage agents” - besides obviously people selling AI

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jmcodes
41 minutes ago
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I was already spending a lot of time reviewing other people's code. It makes no difference to me if it's coming from an agent or a person.

I can pick and choose which parts of the problem deserve my attention and which can be done by the LLM with me just keeping an eye on it while I mostly work on something else. I don't have metrics but I feel like I am doing higher leverage work with less friction.

Setting up the systems around the LLM itself is fun too. Hacking on harnesses and trying to improve the UX or the metrics is fun. Playing with different workflow topologies across agents is fun. Diving deep into context strategies, memory systems, prompting is fun. Trying to marry ideas from the past with what LLMs enable now is fun.

I don't see how this is soulless or unbearable but granted I'm not at a place that is demanding I maximize throughput. That would suck.

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em-bee
52 seconds ago
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but it's not fun for everyone. reviewing code for people vs agents is a massive difference for me. with people i can teach them. with LLMs i can't. it makes me feel helpless. just like i feel helpless using broken non-free apps. i can tolerate the same bugs in FOSS application, because i potentially can fix them even if i don't actually do it. i don't feel helpless, i feel like i have a choice. with LLMs i don't get that choice.

most of the other things you mention feel tedious to me. i like diving into the code, understanding how to solve a problem, figuring out how to make the code structure look elegant and readable. find and comment on a clever short-cut, even if it means that i may not be clever enough to debug it later.

i don't get any of that with LLM generated code. i'd spend more time to clean up and fix the LLM code than i would writing it from scratch. to use LLM code efficiently, i'd have to give up all that. but i don't want to do that.

using LLM to code feels like gambling. every time i put in a prompt, its like rolling the dice. am i going to get a useful solution this time? and then reroll until i get a useful result rather than building up the application one step at a time.

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runarberg
1 hour ago
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> As someone who grew up in a city on the East Coast

Since this blogsite has a .is domain I must assume they mean Egilsstaðir a lovely city with a population of around 2500 people.

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analogpixel
1 hour ago
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programming is just procrastination that gets in the way of implementing your ideas.
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quentindanjou
1 hour ago
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"painting is just procrastination that gets in the way of implementing your ideas."

"woodwork is just procrastination that gets in the way of implementing your ideas."

We can find plenty of others, but my main point is that industrializing a process doesn't make it "procrastinating". There are plenty of jobs that are done by machines but are still practiced by humans for multiple reasons. If we think of coding as a means to create, then we have plenty of examples of good reasons to have both the industrialized process and the 'handmade' one.

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saltcured
46 minutes ago
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Where does this evolution really lead?

"Thinking is just procrastination that gets in the way of your opinions"? ;-)

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analogpixel
33 minutes ago
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> Where does this evolution really lead?

probably that nothing really matters, so I guess do whatever makes you happy. If programming makes you happy then you should do it.

I find programming Advent of Code fun so I do it, but I don't find writing yet another web interface fun, so I have Claude do it.

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tobadzistsini
1 hour ago
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I'm vegan. I only watch PBS and the Criterion Channel. I'm atheist. Now it's "I don't vibe code."
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satvikpendem
3 minutes ago
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It does seem like a sort of virtue signaling these days right?
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beepbooptheory
54 minutes ago
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Wait what's wrong with the Criterion Channel??
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