I knew that enums were really just named integer values and nothing more, but I had forgotten than you can build a perfectly legal enum from an integer out of the bounds of the enum's range. And a switch statement is non-exhaustive. (As I said, it had been a while since I used C# extensively.) What would have been a few lines of code in Rust turned into dozens to try to exhaustively protect against invalid input.
I know C# is a mature language that has been around for decades, but how janky everything feels comparatively really shocked me. I only very briefly played with F# about a decade ago, but my guess is that I could try to pick that up and call F# from C#, getting much better ergonomics with a combination of the two.
These are solved by the new feature described in the article that we're commenting on right now. They're giving us unions and exhaustive switch. Ctrl+F "canonical way to work with unions" in the article to see an example. One of the best parts about C# is they never stop bringing useful features from other languages back home to us in C#. It makes for a large language with a lot of features, but if we really want it, we'll eventually get it in C#.
How? Can you elaborate?
More seriously, it has all the strengths and weaknesses of WinForms and feels about exactly as unfinished and rough as WinForms. I still have to implement custom widgets that i would have expected to be included out of the box. It's nice that it's cross-platform, though with all the rough edges that cross-platform .net still has. It really, truly feels exactly like every C# UI framework I've ever used in the last 20 years: almost good, not quite finished, and takes an amount of effort that is just unreasonable compared to any other language/framework of any age.
I've been a C# dev for most of my career. I have more fun writing UIs from scratch by drawing individual pixels in C++ than any C# UI.
Moreover, many functional languages are getting pseudo-procedural features via the like of “do” syntax and monads, but that this is in some sense a double abstraction over the underlying machine that is already inherently procedural.
Starting from a language that is already procedural and sprinkling some functional abstractions on top is simpler to implement and easier for humans to use and understand.
Rust especially showed that many of the supposed advantages of functional languages are not their exclusive domain, such as sum types and a powerful type system.
Update: Hah! ChatGPT found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21280429
Note the top comment especially, which explains succinctly why functional has rather substantial downsides.
Is having a combination of F# and C# in a single codebase possible? Is it recommended?
And yes, you can combine them, but afair, only in terms project boundaries. (You can include a c# project in an f# one and vice versa). There are a few cases where it's quite useful. For example, rewriting a part of a big project in f# to leverage the imperative shell - functional core architecture. Like rewriting some part that does data processing in f#, so that you can test it easier/be more confident in correctness, while not doing a complete rewrite at once.
Sort of like rust parts in the linux kernel.
public record Left<T>(T Value);
public record Right<T>(T Value);
public union Either<L, R>(Left<L>, Right<R>);The idiomatic way to do this would be to parse, don't validate [1] each string into a relevant type with a record or record struct. If you just wanted to return two results of the same type, you'd wrap them in a named tuple or a record that represented the actual meaning.
[1] https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/11/05/parse-don-t-va...
As a (bad) trivial example, you could wrap reading a file in this kind of monstrosity:
var fileResult = Helpers.ReadFile(@"c:\temp\test.txt");
Console.WriteLine("Extracted:");
Console.WriteLine(Helpers.ExtractString(fileResult));
public record FileRead(string value);
public record FileError(string value);
public union FileResult(FileError, FileRead);
public static class Helpers
{
public static FileResult ReadFile(string fileName)
{
try
{
var fileResult = System.IO.File.ReadAllText(fileName);
return new FileRead(fileResult);
}
catch (Exception ex)
{
return new FileError(ex.Message);
}
}
public static string ExtractString(FileResult result)
{
return result switch
{
FileError err => $"An Error occured: {err.value}",
FileRead content => content.value,
_ => throw new NotImplementedException()
};
}
}
It's more useful implemented a level deeper, so that the exception is never raised and caught, because exceptions aren't particularly cheap in .NET.
Not entirely convinced that I see the usecase that makes up for the potential madness.
2001: "Beating the Averages" (Paul Graham) [1]
2006: "Can Your Programming Language Do This?" (Joel Spolsky) [2]
Both of these articles argue for the thesis that programmers that have been deprived of certain language features often argue that they don't need those features since they are already comfortable working around the lack of said features.
It's a fancy way of arguing: you don't know what you're missing because you've never had it. Or, don't knock it until you try it.
Consider, is your argument a) I've never used it and don't see a need for it, or b) I've used it before and didn't get any benefit?
1. https://paulgraham.com/avg.html?viewfullsite=1
2. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/01/can-your-programmi...
1. Argue from ignorance. Never try unions in any other programming languages and completely disallow their use in C# codebases that you participate in.
2. Try them out and adopt an informed opinion.
You may even choose to remain in ignorance until someone wastes their own time trying to convince you. But it isn't my job or desire to teach someone who won't put in the effort to learn for themselves.
In current C# I usually do something like
public class ApiResponse<T> { public T? Response { get; set; } public bool IsSuccessful { get; set; } public ErrorResponse Error { get; set; } }
This means I have to check that IsSuccessful is true (and/or that Response is not null). But more importantly, it means my imbecile coworkers who never read my documentation need to do so as well otherwise they're going to have a null reference exception in prod because they never actually test their garbage before pushing it to prod. And I get pulled into a 4 hour meeting to debug and solve the issue as a result.
With union types, I can return a union of the types T and ErrorResponse and save myself massive headaches.
Often the explanations just seem rather abstract which makes it harder to appreciate the win, versus the hideous sort of code that might appear when they're misused.
"Make invalid states unrepresentable."
such as?
> This should reduce the proliferation of verbose class hierarchies in C#
So just as an alternative for class hierarchies? I mean good people already balance that by having a preference for composition.
type Expr =
| Primitive of int
| Addition of (Expr * Expr)
| Subtraction of (Expr * Expr)
| Negation of ExprThe problem with C# is that it’s so overloaded with features.
If you come from one codebase to another codebase by a different team it’s close to learning a completely new language, but worse, there is no documentation I can find that will teach me only about that language.
Throw in all the versioning issues and the fact that .Net shops aren’t great about updating to the latest versions, especially because versions, although technologically separated from Visual Studio, are still culturally tied to it, and trying to break that coupling causes all kinds of weird challenges to solve.
Then stuff like extensions means your private codebase or a 3rd party lib may have added native looking functionality that’s not part of the language but looks like it is.
Finally, keywords and operators are terribly overloaded in C# at this point, where a keyword can have completely different meanings based on what it’s surrounded by.
LLMs are a huge help here, since you can point to a line of code and ask them to figure it out, but it still makes the process of navigating a C# codebase extremely challenging.
So I can see why someone may be unhappy to see yet another feature. It’s not just this one feature. It’s the 100s of other features that are hard to even identify.
I get there's an .Either pattern when chaining function calls so you don't have to do weird typing to return errors, but I'm using exceptions for that anyway, so the return type isn't an issue.
It’s a very decent language (I mean C#) and runtime, I wish it had more market share in the startup world.
Godot was using Mono too but has since switched to .NET in version 4.
Still a great language and I hope Unity can hit their target to switch to .NET soon!
There's not tons of noise being made because for the most part it all, Just Works and that's fairly boring. Perf, memory usage etc gets better every release. As an ecosystem, I'm pretty happy with it. I reach for other languages for smaller microservices.
You mean Raileasy? Or RDG too? (Just curious about the stack of the wider rail tech infra)
All of them run in Linux servers.
Some of them were ported from PHP and Python to C#.
Plus LLMs thrive in strongly typed languages.
Which means C# will keep being very strong in enterprise too. Not only in games where it reigns a large chunk of the market share.
companies spend a lot on marketing, and it's not just ads.