Pokémon Go Scans Trained the Navigation Tech for Military Drones
115 points
1 hour ago
| 22 comments
| dronexl.co
| HN
adrianhon
9 minutes ago
[-]
This article is based on reporting from Trouw: https://www.trouw.nl/redactie/PokemonGo/

I was interviewed for the Trouw piece and briefly quoted. This isn't to detract from the DroneXL piece, which adds its own angle.

reply
petterroea
31 minutes ago
[-]
This shouldn't be a surprise. But at this point it feels like if you don't completely avoid participating in digital society, your data will be used against you or groups/countries you support.
reply
Cthulhu_
18 minutes ago
[-]
Mainly if you allow a government and / or corporations to do so, but unfortunately democracy and the like only gives you so much influence on that.
reply
relyks
1 hour ago
[-]
I stopped scanning pokestops because the effort has outweighed the rewards. A lot of the time, the requests show up as "research tasks" for a point of interest that I quickly passed by and have no interest in returning to, besides the tasks related to taking pictures of your buddy pokemon in augmented reality. Looks like I made the right choice by stopping. They do indicate to you up front that they will use the data, but it's still kind of terrible that you could be indirectly contributing to war efforts. I always assumed the data would be used for large world model training or simulations.
reply
Cthulhu_
13 minutes ago
[-]
> I always assumed the data would be used for large world model training or simulations.

That was the initial objective, improving navigation by having people walk slowly on pedestrian accessible locations instead of only the main roads. But once that data is collated, it could go anywhere and you've signed any rights to what happens with it away when you agreed to the Ts & Cs.

reply
Utilera
50 minutes ago
[-]
That's what makes this feel so off
reply
christoph
20 minutes ago
[-]
My 8 year old LOVES Pokemon Go, and we regularly go to a local meet up which is a fascinating microcosm of people of all ages from all walks of life. We’ve met some great people and had some incredible conversations, but I really struggle to see how we can continue in good faith now.

I seriously loath, hate & despise everything about this digital panopticon world being constructed around us.

reply
superkickstart
57 minutes ago
[-]
The world is so messed up right now that this is not even the least bit surprising. In fact it's on point.
reply
emperorxanu
25 minutes ago
[-]
I still feel like this is a perfect example of why we should be asking for our data to be disclosed to the public. If I take a picture of some public point of interest, they end up tagging it with their metadata and selling it, well, that's what I agreed to by not reading 20 pages of T&C's right?

But the value in that data is in the liveliness right, so at some point, would it not make sense for that data to be considered a public asset?

Why do we not demand this data be released regularly (given that the inverse tech could be developed using this as well)? If it can be used to train things used for war, could it not equally be used to train better lifesaving tech (in which case, the data should be made available to the public)?

reply
johannes1234321
6 minutes ago
[-]
It's quite obvious that data is what pays the game. A lot of data about the players )daily routine, commute to work/school, social circles to other players, etc. which allows to derive Job, wealth, etc.), data about surroundings (where do people actually walk, drive, ... etc.)

The story here however I'm not too sure about: Isn't the game mostly played in dense urban areas? - by the time you need military drones there the area will have changed a lot (destruction, fortification, ... and overall be outdated) where I think the civilian drones (delivery, cars, ....) benefit more. While the technology certainly is dual use.

reply
alexashka
4 minutes ago
[-]
You can ask for whatever you like - nobody's listening.

There is no 'we'. 99%+ of people view the world as a zero sum game where for me to win, somebody has to lose and if I don't do whatever it takes, somebody else will and then I lose, therefore I have no morals or principles or virtues and anyone who does is a liar or a fool.

Everything is a bad faith act, everyone is a selfish bad faith actor and I shouldn't feel bad about being one because everyone else who isn't a fool is too.

This and much more was explained by Plato long, long ago and just about no one understood any of it. At least the text survived and people with 140+ IQ can read it and be at peace knowing they're not crazy for wanting to not be a selfish piece of shit.

reply
wartywhoa23
23 minutes ago
[-]
An interesting thing is that in Russia, this military data grab by ostensibly 'our western would-be enemies" was supported by viral advertisement by nobody else but the head of Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill.

They manufactured a story of arresting a 15 y.o. boy in the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour for playing Pokemon Go.

The story went hyper-hyped for weeks, with general public sentiment that once such an obscurant retrograde declares such an innocent game so evil, it must be something to absolutely install and play in spite!

And such was the way of the Pokemon Go's viral success in Russia.

reply
Mikhail_Edoshin
20 minutes ago
[-]
Apparently that story was manufactured and promoted by someone else, don't you think?
reply
wartywhoa23
6 minutes ago
[-]
Sure, I don't expect Kirill himself to come up with that, but he was positively used as a notorious talking head, which whatever it says must be understood to the contrary.

Like in that case when he blamed the rise of toll roads in Russia - "oh brothers and sisters, shalt we allow taking the toll on what should forever be free in Russia?" - the public reacted in the exact same way - a religious zealot told this, so this must actually be a progressive, sane thing to do the opposite.

reply
saretup
13 minutes ago
[-]
Streisand effect marketing 4d chess move by Niantic?
reply
yanhangyhy
8 minutes ago
[-]
i remerber china bans it many years ago... and many people dont understand why.... never trust a USA product!

and we even have youtube videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiJOHV9rIxU

reply
Larrikin
41 minutes ago
[-]
I'm glad I always quickly scanned the dirt. At some point I gave up completely when I heard they started banning people for dirt scans.

In the latest season they've gotten rid of the scan rewards, so I guess they got all the data they needed.

reply
wiseowise
15 minutes ago
[-]
This is all for your security! Right? Right…?
reply
tomaytotomato
18 minutes ago
[-]
How useful is spatial data over time, does it decay or age much?

Is the geographical data more useful, or are buildings and other structures more important?

Genuinely don't know much in this space.

reply
malux85
9 minutes ago
[-]
Compred to what? Datasets at this scale are rare. You're not comparing against another ideal dataset, you're comparing against having nothing.
reply
johannes1234321
2 minutes ago
[-]
There are so many companies these days doing recording for self driving cars and/or street view like applications. Also sites like Flickr collect huge sets of geo tagged photos, as do companies like Meta where tons of geo tagged images are shared each day via their different outlets.

Niantic has the benefit that they can steer "volunteers" to specific points, though.

reply
mcosta
34 minutes ago
[-]
It is even worse, tax money is used for the military.
reply
teekert
32 minutes ago
[-]
I know it's sarcasm, it's a valid point. We all already contribute to the war efforts of our governments.
reply
lmf4lol
36 minutes ago
[-]
And here I am, trying to make our product as privacy friendly as possible. Trying to follow GDPR and the AI act. Trying to respect my users..

And then there are those guys... and they make billions, by giving a flying f*ck about ethics or what so ever. And NO ONE will hold them accountable. NO ONE! Because either they lack the power, or they are bought and in it on the scheme.

I accept that the world is like that. Just like International Law has always been nothing more than an academic exercise, business doesnt care about anyone besides profit. Its fine. Its just sad also...

reply
wartywhoa23
39 minutes ago
[-]
Where are all the edgelords sending me cuckoo signs and tagging me as conspiracy theorist when I said that it compiles photogrammetry by placing pokemons at areas and angles with low image coverage?

Ah, oh yes, "we all knew it from the start", "they indicated that up front" etc.

Fuck no, everyone was foaming at the mouth how it's just a game and no way in hell an intelligence operation.

P.S. Those who "knew it from the start" yet continued helping Niantic, did you really think that the data will be used for the greater good of the humankind?

reply
BoppreH
32 minutes ago
[-]
> it compiles photogrammetry by placing pokemons at areas and angles with low image coverage

But that's not what happened. The data came from very explicit scanning tasks centered about pokestops, not the AR pokemon capture. I used it once or twice to test it out, and it was a drawn out process where it asks you to slowly orbit the pokestop while filming, then permission to upload the (huge) files. You even had to activate a special "volunteer" account flag to even see these tasks.

From TFA:

> Since 2021, Pokémon Go has asked players to record short videos of real-world locations, called Pokéstops, to earn extra in-game items. Scanning all the buildings, streets, and trees in a 360-degree sweep was optional, and Niantic asked separately for permission to keep the footage. Granting it meant agreeing to extra terms.

I'm sure they used GPS data from the players too, but I still hold that it's unlikely the AR pokemon capture yielded any data to them.

reply
wartywhoa23
13 minutes ago
[-]
Well if such a conspiracy crackhead like me somehow happened to reach ranks of Niantic team, I'd totally make sure that there is a decoy "huge data upload point with explicit consent" to shift focus from covert data channels that slowly transmit all else using some custom image compression, maybe just some very small fraction of original data that by the mass nature of acquisition would mathematically still reconstruct the original data, or the fraction of that data that is enough to build a world model.
reply
BoppreH
6 minutes ago
[-]
Videos are inherently large. There are better compression algorithms than what phone cameras generate by default, but video reencoding is slow, and the results still too large for "covert data channels".

Normal players would have noticed the bandwidth and CPU usage, and volunteers have already agreed to data sharing, so there's no point in keeping secrets. Same as claims that the Facebook app listens to people talking, someone would have caught it by now.

Also, AR capture was never very popular, mostly a gimmick for new players. The game was already a battery and power hog even without it.

reply
Utilera
54 minutes ago
[-]
Once the data has trained a model, it also becomes almost impossible to meaningfully audit or undo
reply
vrganj
35 minutes ago
[-]
August 2016: Iran Becomes First Country to Ban Pokémon GO

https://www.avclub.com/iran-becomes-first-country-to-ban-pok...

Really smart decision, in hindsight.

reply
alpineman
1 hour ago
[-]
Truly dystopian. The Pokémon Company should share the blame for licensing their brand in this way without proper safeguards to prevent the data being used for this, particularly given the background of the Niantic founders
reply
rich_sasha
51 minutes ago
[-]
Can you imagine scanning your house, your school, your playground, thinking you're catching Pikachu, then have a drone hit it based on your own footage? Pretty terrifying.
reply
nicce
57 minutes ago
[-]
Maybe Nintendo lawyers could show their skin for a good cause at once.
reply
KeplerBoy
42 minutes ago
[-]
Do you really think Niantic didn't make sure their actual partners didn't agree to their business model?
reply
nicce
24 minutes ago
[-]
If there is enough retaliation that Ninendo is connected for using kids to build war machines, I am sure things can change.
reply
relyks
1 hour ago
[-]
Indeed, but should we always assume data of any type we generate for services can be used for malicious means?
reply
alpineman
57 minutes ago
[-]
To an extent, but realistically it wasn't really reasonable to expect a cutesy Pokemon game to be used for this ten years later. If you had told the average Pokemon Go player this ten years ago you would have been called crazy. The Pokemon Company should have done more to protect their brand (I would hope for regulation too on player-generated real world data like this)
reply
Utilera
48 minutes ago
[-]
I think this is where brand licensing gets more complicated than it usually appears
reply
ai_fry_ur_brain
42 minutes ago
[-]
Niantics founder has CIA roots... None of this is surprising.

https://www.binance.com/en/square/post/302386307352562

reply
u8080
34 minutes ago
[-]
AFAIR, there is a chain of companies which connects Niantic to govt agencies, they were selling this data to Uncle Sam from the beginning(even before Pokemon GO)
reply
l23k4
8 minutes ago
[-]
> Niantics founder has CIA roots

This is not at all an honest way of saying "Niantics founder raised money from In-Q-Tel"

reply
freakynit
34 minutes ago
[-]
Watch Dogs: Legion
reply
self_awareness
51 minutes ago
[-]
Insane.

People literally traded military intelligence for Pokémon.

reply
bronlund
47 minutes ago
[-]
Just wonderful.
reply
Ccecil
39 minutes ago
[-]
Hate to say I called this years ago....

It is a shameful use of tech.

reply
keketi
37 minutes ago
[-]
surprised pikachu face
reply