Human Judgment as a Specification
28 points
3 days ago
| 4 comments
| blog.brownplt.org
| HN
ekidd
1 hour ago
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> Telling people “you must read all the code generated by an LLM” is definitely meaningful—but it is not at all moderate (so most people won’t do it).

I am honestly heartbroken to live in a world where reading the code is seen as an unreasonable ask by either students or by professional working programmers.

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ramses0
53 minutes ago
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Don't tell me you're reading all assembly generated by your local golang or javac compiler? And that you've read every line of code down the dependency tree for your node_modules?

I'm just upset that we are throwing away the original prompts for generated code in such a cavalier fashion.

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ekidd
39 minutes ago
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The difference is that a compiler is a rigorous, (nearly) determinisic, heavily tested artrifact built by expert humans. I have only encountered genuine code generation bugs in compilers twice in my career. And yes, those bugs I did trace to the assembly.

An LLM prompt, even a huge one, is an incredibly vague document that leaves out most of the edge cases. And even Fable 5 happily ignores clear instructions in its prompt.

Now, to be fair, I absolutely expect the buggy slop to win, and to drive out the people that either write their own code or at least read the output. This will, in turn, make customers less willing to spend money on software after they get burnt a few times by buggy garbage. I think this is pretty much inevitable once Fable returns. It's just too damn good at long time horizon tasks, generating far more mostly sorta working code than any human could reasonably read.

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warkdarrior
12 minutes ago
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> The difference is that a compiler is a rigorous, (nearly) determinisic, heavily tested artrifact built by expert humans.

How do you know your compiler is a rigurous and deterministic? Did you review all of its code?

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wild_egg
51 minutes ago
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`npm install` is the OG vibecoding
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acedTrex
18 minutes ago
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I despise this retort that i see constantly, in no way shape or form is it remotely an accurate analogy. They are two completely different things and its dishonest to attribute the two together.
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remywang
1 hour ago
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> Telling people “you must read all the code generated by an LLM” is definitely meaningful—but it is not at all moderate (so most people won’t do it)

But they should! The code is the best source of truth on what the software is doing after all.

Instead of giving up on that, we should make it easier to read generated code, e.g. by generating less code in a higher level language.

On the flip side, forcing myself to read all the code also resulted in a smaller, higher quality code base.

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otekengineering
1 hour ago
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this is the type of thing you need to build a foundation sturdy enough to let you operate higher up the stack and ratchet to design-by-metaphor and then design-by-philosophy. those design skills are taught in humanities departments, not engineering departments, so this is a weird feeling place for those of us that wandered over from a technical field.
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jMyles
3 hours ago
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> This is also why PICK can usefully fail. Sometimes none of the model’s candidates is right, and PICK ends with zero survivors. Under the spec-elucidation reading, that outcome means: the commitments you made through classification could not be satisfied by anything the model produced. Better to know than to ship the regex anyway.

Zooming out (but only a little) from the impetus to formalize a commitment to a particular class of result candidate (what the author here is calling "spec elucidation"), we can also imagine this same evolution of concerns being applied in order to cause what we currently term "AI safety" into something more like "AI ethics".

For example, if we can elucidate the specifications for things like peace and justice to ensure that the class of results is formally verified as non-participation in war (or perhaps, further in the future, non-participation in state activities whatsoever), we may be able to throw cold water on all the vitriolic arguments about model capabilities and which need to be banned or delayed lest we accelerate the apocalypse (or whatever is actually on the mind of the ban-this-model constituency).

I like how the author ends tersely with:

> If you have a formal language with the closure properties above — we suspect you would be surprised how many do — we would very much like to hear from you.

That's certainly not me, but I bet it's true that it's somebody.

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NitpickLawyer
1 hour ago
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> ensure that the class of results is formally verified as non-participation in war

There are very few things that cannot be stated as dual use, with one totally benign and one totally screwed up. It's like wanting a hammer to distinguish if it's striking a nail for a roof vs. a nail for an illegal animal pen. That's the wrong application of constraints. The hammer shouldn't care.

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jMyles
1 hour ago
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The author addresses this point as well:

> This is also why we do not believe PICK becomes less useful as models improve. Better models do not make user intent more articulate — asked for “a regex matching countries of North America”, a more capable model still cannot tell you whether you want the Caribbean included, or where you want to stop heading south. Better models produce better candidates, faster — which shifts user effort precisely toward the work PICK is built to support.

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NitpickLawyer
39 minutes ago
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That's not I'm saying tho. I quoted the "non-participation in war" bit. I don't see how any system can ascertain if a prompt asking for an algorithm is dual use or not.
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