Developers don't understand CORS (2019)
125 points
5 hours ago
| 25 comments
| fosterelli.co
| HN
muvlon
1 hour ago
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Even TFA seemingly doesn't understand CORS. Or at least misreprents it grossly:

> The webserver listening in on localhost:19421 should implement a REST API and set a Access-Control-Allow-Origin header with the value https://zoom.us. This will ensure that only Javascript running on the zoom.us domain can talk to the localhost webserver.

No, that does not do that. JavaScript from any other website can still talk to localhost:19421 just the same. CORS doesn't restrict anything, it loosens the default set of restrictions (ignoring preflight requests for now and assuming we're talking just about "safe" Methods). That Access-Control-Allow-Origin header just allows JavaScript running on zoom.us to read the responses when it queries localhost:19421. The requests happen in any case, and you must ensure in your backend that they don't cause any adverse effects.

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Lerc
5 minutes ago
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I don't think you can even say CORS does that.

The degree to which CORS is poorly understood (I have read numerous (often contradictory) documentation and I don't really understand it.) means that you can't rely on it being implemented properly by an unknown party,

If a protocol reaches this level of widespread confusion, I think all bets are off. Even if one end of a system performs correctly, who's to say that the other will. If people adapt their code until it works with another implementation, were they mistaken, or the other end?

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encomiast
3 hours ago
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It's not just CORS that's hard to understand. Many (most?) developers don't really understand the threat model. And even when it's explained it hard to see why it's a big deal. Part of this is that backend developers usually have to configure CORS and it's not an access privilege protection. From the point of view of the backend it doesn't seem to matter. Bad guys can't get it. From the point of view of the front-end it's often seen as a nuisance.

The article does a nice job giving a concrete example.

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yaur
2 hours ago
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It’s not that hard to understand… in the cors threat model an attacker gets one your users to take an action on your site by visiting their site.
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hn_throwaway_99
2 hours ago
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> in the cors threat model an attacker gets one your users to take an action on your site by visiting their site

This is really oversimplifying things, incorrectly IMO, and that sentence makes it sound like you're confusing a CSRF vulnerability with CORS protections. Normally when you write a backend server you implement some sort of authentication and access control, and in that scenario the threat model that lets "an attacker gets one your users to take an action on your site by visiting their site" is a CSRF vulnerability, unrelated to CORS.

The scenario presented in TFA is actually a very special case, because the bug is with a webserver running on localhost that doesn't (apparently) implement access control - not something most web apps entail.

In fact, one of the parts that confuses a lot of people is that CORS rules only prevent the JavaScript web client from reading the response from a remote endpoint - if the endpoint is available on the public Internet then anyone can still make a request to it.

The other thing that is confusing about CORS is that browsers already let you load lots of resources from cross origin servers - you can load images (as TFA points out that Zoom did as a workaround), scripts, stylesheets, form submissions, etc. The one thing you can't do, unless the server implements the appropriate CORS headers, is make a cross origin fetch request from JavaScript.

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ctidd
1 hour ago
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All CORS does is allow for selective loosening of anti-CSRF controls. CORS is a mechanism for a service to tell a client “I’m CSRF-resistant” so that that the client doesn’t need to protect its user as tightly when interacting with that service.
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webstrand
41 minutes ago
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Isn't CSRF about forging mutating requests? CORS doesn't block the underlying GET/POST request, the request still goes through and the server still needs to properly implement CSRF prevention. CORS just prevents javascript from reading the response.

CORS _additionally_ requires OPTIONS pre-flight to succeed, before allowing any kind of request outside of what can be achieved with a HTML form submit action. So it blocks PUT/PATCH/DELETE, specifying most Content-Type, and specifying nearly all other headers. But this is just blocking "non-standard complex requests that might confuse badly programmed pre-javascript-era servers".

It passes all standard requests that you could have made by: embedding the url as an image src, the target of a HTML form, endpoint for csp reports, etc. All still need to be checked methodically by the server for CSRF if it's going to take any mutating action due to the request.

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harrall
2 hours ago
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It’s easy to understand but most people don’t naturally think of ways people try to break in. Without thinking about that, the importance of security is low.

It isn’t a knowledge thing (though it could be), or a capability thing, or intelligence. It’s pure mindset.

Ask yourself: is the average person noticing holes in fences and trying random doorknobs… probably not.

But on the other hand, most security people don’t think of product or UX (but some might) so that’s why you have roles.

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vachina
43 minutes ago
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CORS is amazing for when you want to prevent people from (easily) stealing your bandwidth and hosting resources. Thieves have to stand up their own proxies, which makes them very easily blocked.
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trick-or-treat
9 minutes ago
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I think you're confused. The only thing blocked would be client side fetch. You need to find another way to protect everything else.
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cookiengineer
3 hours ago
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On top of that, it's a threat model that doesn't make really sense from an attacker vs defender perspective. Because it's optional, and all kinds of other libraries and tools can just blatantly ignore it anyways.

CORS literally exists only against XSS and CSRF for actively logged in human users. Anything else in CORS is absolutely pointless because every other attack scenario uses scripts or programs that fake HTTP headers anyways. It's just as useless as the Sec-CH (client hint) headers because some Browser made by a company that starts with Micro and ends with Slop decided that the User Agent always needs to be Windows 10 for compatibility reasons.

That is why you see everyone just enabling every CORS option anyways, even though that is literally the worst case that allows XSS and CSRF. And a lot of websites have user edited content at some place, at the very least in images that aren't filtered for embedded scripts (PNGs, anyone?).

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wonnage
2 hours ago
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What else is there in CORS? It’s all basically a way for an origin to communicate to the browser which other origins it can share data with. Of course if there’s no browser involved then there’s no need for it.

Client hints are useful for all the shitty “responsive” websites that don’t know how to use media queries. And for ad tracking. Mostly the latter

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supriyo-biswas
1 hour ago
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I wish more people read the CORS article on MDN[1] which helped me a lot at the time when I was trying to understand it. I knew some people had trouble with CORS but had no idea it was this bad, going by the comments here.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Guides/COR...

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mparnisari
1 hour ago
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I'm one of them. CORS is THE topic that I have to get a refresher for periodically. It's like I forget about it, it never sticks. I'm a backend developer so I never encounter any cors issues. Maybe that's why? I seem to forget things that I don't use on a day to day basis, so.
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yen223
59 minutes ago
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The biggest problem with CORS is precisely that most CORS errors show up as a frontend problem - specifically, a browser problem - but it needs to be fixed on the backend
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piyh
4 hours ago
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The only thing I remember about CORS is that it takes way longer than expected to debug, by design the error messages sent to the browser are intentionally gutted, and CORS error scenarios are hard to tell from other failure modes atfirst glance.
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deathanatos
4 hours ago
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> by design the error messages sent to the browser are intentionally gutted

A CORS error is not "an error message sent to the browser", it is an error generated by the browser, because the browser has decided it cannot permit the request. (Though certainly a server can not understand a CORS request as such, and returned a weird response, which would then end up getting translated to a CORS failure.)

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ameliaquining
3 hours ago
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I think what the person you're replying to is trying to say is that the web-accessible error message (i.e., the one that JavaScript running in the sending page can read) is intentionally opaque and somewhat misleading, because a more helpful error message would leak information about the response that the sending origin isn't supposed to have. There's typically a more helpful error message in the dev tools (which JavaScript running in a page can't access), but you have to know where to find it.
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thomask1995
20 minutes ago
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I think some sort of gui to help write the cors headers would help tbh.

it's quite difficult to get your stack to work for local dev, CI, and prod since each most likely needs different cors headers. Especially if you use tunnels and proxies like we do.

What made it click for me though was understanding what problem it solved.

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jdw64
4 hours ago
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Sometimes I'm not even sure what I truly 'understand.' When even senior engineers working on products used by hundreds of millions of people, like Zoom, have had these kinds of issues, it makes me wonder. So I usually just write code the way it was left by my seniors, out of inertia. But I realize that the area I work in is actually incredibly abstracted.
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frogulis
3 hours ago
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From my experience, the reason CORS is hard to understand is that it's somehow inverted from the default "shape" of security in web dev.

We easily form the intuition of the client being a by-default untrusted entity, and checking whether it has the privilege of accessing this data, where the server is the arbiter of that access.

CORS is so inherently different to that, and while the information is easily available, it requires a short but careful read to grok the idea -- which a dev tunnel-visioning towards getting their application code written may not wish to slow down for.

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somat
47 minutes ago
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It's me, CORS was the stupidest thing I encountered in a long line of stupid when trying to put together a simple web app for the first time.

"So let me get this straight. We tell the client whether the application we gave them can or cannot make requests to our servers. And none of this actually prevents the client from making the requests if they want to?... Pull the other one it has bells on."

It took a good sleep and a long shower to under stand it. "Oh... it is for if I want to do a self injection attack and allow random untrusted malicious code in my application. In other words, ads"

Basically the threat model is inverted from any other threat model, that is why it looks so stupid. CORS is threat model used for when you can't trust your self.

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throwaway7356
4 minutes ago
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> CORS is threat model used for when you can't trust your self.

No. But many lack basic understanding of web technologies or facts like that a browser can be used to access more than a single site. This leads to not understanding what problems cross-site requests can cause and thus the impossibility of understanding what CORS is for.

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gf000
24 minutes ago
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Well, it's easy to "not trust yourself" when you have user-submittable content that you display for other users. Sure, one should absolutely sanitize it, but layered security is important.
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sciencejerk
23 minutes ago
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Eh, or maybe you landed on a malicious site or clicked on a malicious phishing link which opened your browser
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kartoshechka
1 hour ago
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- cors docs are written either from solution or implementation point of view, not the "why this exists, and how we successively deal with bad actors trying to game cors", cors RFC is terse

- protocol itself is quite nuanced, like iirc requests with Authorization (or some other) headers don't obide by usual rules, and again for developer it's just an arbitrary convoluted set of rules, if they don't grasp the problematics

- backend and frontend should work in unison to have correctly configured cors, but as we know, devs hate communicating with each other

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ozim
1 hour ago
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Issue is that for most projects CORS is set and forget. You don’t run into it once a month or even once a year - you run into it when setting up new project from scratch.

Many or most developers work on existing projects that have all kinds of security defaults set somewhere in the past and no one bothers reviewing those.

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koolala
3 hours ago
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CORS sucks since Cross-Origin-Embedder-Policy: credentialless was never made standard across all browsers. It's a browser client restriction you can't turn off. If you want to do anything interesting with WWW content you have to run your own browser or run an out-of-box one off a proxy server that breaks everything.
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physix
2 hours ago
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> Developer's don't understand CORS

Count me in!

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stephbook
2 hours ago
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I still don't understand the threat model and, obviously, it's not explained here either.

I log in to social.net. I click on scam.org and change sites. I'm on scam.org and it triggers a request to social.net/friends.

No cookies are sent, no JWT. I'm not logged in and get a "Needs login" HTTP error. Nothing bad happens.

I thought that's how it works without CORS already.

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abraham
2 hours ago
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By default cookies are sent for cross-origin requests. The SameSite cookie flag that lets sites control this was only shipped in Safari the year before this blog post was written so it would have been hard to depend on it yet.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Guides/Coo...

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teaearlgraycold
2 hours ago
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Cookies will be sent if SameSite=None. Because a lot of the web's security features were implemented well after the tech was popular it's a patch-work with lots of overlap.
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piterrro
2 hours ago
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Wait, isnt it implemented because of the sheer number of broswers that could be used at the Zoom’s scale? They could’ve used jsonp too it they wanted to bypass CORS. Using image with different dimensions sounds like the most bulletproof way across multiple devices/OSes/browsers
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d--b
16 minutes ago
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A CORS protected endpoint tells YOUR BROWSER not to let YOU access its content if the website you’re browsing from is not whitelisted.

It’s confusing because unlike most security features, it’s meant to protect the users from themselves. The risk comes from a combination of users being allowed to visit malevolent sites and browsers letting all websites do a lot of random stuff, including making 3rd party requests with cookies and private stuff

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deathanatos
4 hours ago
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Generally when I'm debugging these, I need/want to know what was the preflight (if applicable), and was the preflight what was expected? When I help others debug these, generally I find there is little expectation of what the preflight "should" be, and instead just a bunch of stochastic attempts to adjust the server's response headers to get the browser to capitulate — regardless of whether that makes any sense at all.

I would also say I think Firefox's network inspector is better in this area. (But I'm often having to ask others to "no, don't send the failing request, send the CORS preflight", we need to understand what happened with it.)

> Anecdotally, lots of developers I’ve talked with don’t understand well how CORS works.

Yeah, most FE devs I've worked with seem to not understand CORS.

> Is the CORS API too complex and confusing

I think it can be hard if you don't understand why the exceptions to preflights are what they are, but the moment you internalize "because the browser can already emit that request in other cases" then it becomes obvious what categories are what & why.

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preommr
3 hours ago
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Because, like many things in web, it's a patchwork of compromises due to legacy issues, rampant inconcistencies and trying to be too clever.

You get results where it's really difficult intuitively understand it because at that point you're not really meant to. Realistically, people just follow a guide, or some lib, and move on.

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ottoflux
2 hours ago
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the amount of code i've seen either allowing * when it shouldn't because someone was desperately trying to make their code work is astounding.

contractors, "specialists", etc. who never took the time to read how CORS works and how simply you can handle a list of allowable sites, etc.

it's only complicated until you take the 5-10 minutes to properly understand what happens where. if you don't know, go do it now.

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bornfreddy
1 hour ago
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5-10 minutes? I'm sold. Any link you can share?

I'm saying this as someone who has learned about CORS protections many times, implemented the solutions with care they deserved, but forgot most of it soon after - each time. So I'd be very happy to invest even 15 minutes to break this cycle.

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oofbey
2 hours ago
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As somebody who has spent a lot more than 10 minutes trying to figure out why CORS was blocking what seemed legitimate, I sympathize with people doing the wrong thing, and disagree with your assertion that it’s not that complicated. Maybe I’m just slow. But objectively I know I’m not.
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N_Lens
1 hour ago
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“Objectively”
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robertclaus
3 hours ago
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I bet there's an awful lot of servers out there that will happily take CORS requests from any host because someone didn't understand why their second domain couldn't talk to the same API.
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ChadNauseam
2 hours ago
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That describes pretty much every server I've ever written lol.
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foundart
2 hours ago
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Correct. Where are some good explanations?
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dboreham
3 hours ago
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The only thing to understand is that it does nothing useful today.
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paulryanrogers
3 hours ago
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Doesn't it help protect clients from malicious 3P JS?

At least so long as they don't have malicious extensions or a non-CORS browser?

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iririririr
3 hours ago
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everything browser is about still allowing The Bad Thing Ad Companies need.

cors et al is a freaking mess because those things are designed by a comitee choke full of people who last promotion was their cool idea about how to monetize referrer, or how do cookie match across domains, or profile you with millisecond it takes to list your usb audio devices, or etc etc etc

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mock-possum
4 hours ago
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I honestly just can’t be arsed. I write the code to do the thing I want, and if CORS throws a wrench into things, I make Claude fix it for me. I’m tired boss.
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trick-or-treat
2 minutes ago
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, claude fixes it by doing insecure shit, your secrets end up exposed, you end up running a $10,000 api bill, you wonder how you got there.
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postsantum
2 hours ago
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Good for you. It's the responsibility of the boss to hire someone to type "claude pls check if prorgam not safe"
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rishabhpoddar
56 minutes ago
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I agree that CORS is hard to understand and fix. I was the CTO at an auth company and SO many of our users used to run into various CORS issues and asked questions on our support. However, I'd now argue that developers don't need to understand CORS anymore.. cause claude / gpt does! Just throw in the error in claude code / codex and it would fix it.
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stephantul
49 minutes ago
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The second part of this comment is not what I expected. I also don’t think it is true. I got bit by a CORS error at work recently that passed by Claude, copilot, and another senior engineer.
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gum_wobble
55 minutes ago
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> developers don’t need to understand X … cause claude does!

…………………

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sourcecodeplz
34 minutes ago
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damn where are we heading?
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