Rent collections are down in New York
64 points
8 hours ago
| 9 comments
| politico.com
| HN
epsteingpt
38 minutes ago
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For those looking for the actual data. It's from 2024 - says nothing about the current situation.

* ~37K affordable housing units (baseline) across ~400 projects * 89% rent collection rate (down from 90.6% in 2023) * That's 600 units that went 'delinquent' in 2024 - assuming a $24K 'base' rent (just a guess) that's $15M in lost rent. * Deeply troubled projects (that can't survive without this rent) are at 11% - seems like the inverse. * Cumulative arrears (unpaid rent) of $500M

Here's the problem: * If no one had to pay, no one would. * We've tried free housing before - it suffered tragedy of the commons. Not paying means no ownership means subjugation to the worst actions of the worst members of society. * The projects fall into disrepair, there's no way to bring them back, because they won't be maintained.

Landlords aren't a great solution to the problem to be sure. They can be greedy and heartless.

The bigger problem is the bid up of asset prices - aka private equity and class warfare. As soon as you switch (from renting to owning) your incentives immediately shift.

There doesn't actually seem to be a way around this. Taxing to spend on rent ironically makes the problem worse because you just transfer the money into the cash flows of the owners.

Anyone thinking there's a simple solution to this problem hasn't spent enough time with the problem.

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mullingitover
12 minutes ago
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> We've tried free housing before - it suffered tragedy of the commons. Not paying means no ownership means subjugation to the worst actions of the worst members of society

We tried cramming people from generational poverty into one place and it didn't go super great, therefore public housing as a concept must be the failure, and not our hilariously bad implementation?

Singapore, Austria, Finland, and even a number of mixed income public housing projects in the US have actually done quite well. The narrative that it's all inevitably going to turn into the worst examples is pretty worn out.

> The bigger problem is the bid up of asset prices - aka private equity and class warfare.

This is definitely true: housing can either be affordable or it can be a safe investment, never both. Really private equity moving in on the safe investment is a symptom of the problem: regulatory capture by the landed gentry resulting in strangulation of production which benefits a small group at the expense of the greater public.

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epsteingpt
1 minute ago
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You're seeing the next version of this - cooked up by the smartest public policy people - fail in real time. That's what this article is about.

89% of these projects are - in fact - doing well. But that number is decreasing. The net result is less supply of public housing in one of the richest states in the entire world.

I'm not sure what your proposal is?

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digitaltrees
23 minutes ago
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The solution is pretty simple: build and unreasonable amount of housing. And entirely new cities. America has enough land. We could build new infrastructure, give people lots of land or build houses like we did in the 40s and 50s. Of the price of a house was brought down to 1x the annual salary of the median individual income some of these problems wouldn’t exist. We need to flood the system with investment and inventory.
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epsteingpt
16 minutes ago
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See Detroit mid-2010s for why massive overbuilding isn't a good strategy here.
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knowaveragejoe
9 minutes ago
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Can you explain more? What happened in Detroit in the mid 2010s, how did itreverse course after that?
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epsteingpt
6 minutes ago
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Detroit was the hub of the auto industry. Outsourcing and foreign competition hollowed out the central city (which deliberately didn't have public transit) and left gigantic abandoned houses and skyscrapers throughout.

There has been massive public investment and popular support to cause a revival of sorts in the city and is a success story.

Go look at some photos from like 2010-2014.

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Retric
43 seconds ago
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Such short term issues from massive economic collapse suggests building more housing works.
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throwaway27448
25 minutes ago
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I don't understand why we can't just copy another country's housing strategy. There are many countries in the world where housing is affordable, relatively high quality, and the homelessness rate is low. What are we doing that makes this problem so seemingly intractable? Why is our approach to public housing seemingly worse than any other approach in history?
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epsteingpt
17 minutes ago
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A bit of a misnomer. Housing is, actually, extremely affordable across the US - just not in major cities.

You can plunk $10-$20K and get land and a homestead in dozens of states.

Agree with the other comment that overbuilding is a reasonable strategy, but if you look at Detroit downtown (mid 2010s) having an overbuilt downtown is bad too.

It's a hard problem.

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throwaway27448
10 minutes ago
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Well we didn't exactly divvy up either housing or employment rationally, so looking through history without state subsidies and development, we're going to see slums pop up where the jobs are. Or just massive homeless populations I guess.

China managed this quite well with the hukou system, which allegedly is going to be loosened over time, but that seems distinctly unlikely to be understood by the powers that be here in the US.

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BoxFour
2 hours ago
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> The uptick in rental delinquency isn’t new. It started six years ago

It has nothing to do with Mamdani, for those of who don't want to bother to read. Most of this occurred under Eric Adams's watch.

Anecdotally, I do think covid made people a lot more aware of how deeply backlogged the housing courts are. It seems like a lot of people (like the anonymous one in the article) realized they could not pay rent and avoid being actually evicted for quite some time.

This is a recurring theme in city problems: Backlogged courts. Sometimes that's to the benefit of the less fortunate (here), but it also often results in terrible outcomes (see: Kalief Browder).

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eru
2 hours ago
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I think even the benefit for the less fortunate here is at most a short-term one. In the longer one, you need building and renting out shelter to be reasonably profitable, so that people do it.

It's basically the same argument that says rent caps are bad for the renters in the long run.

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tmnvix
1 hour ago
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We don't always have to consider the apparently very fragile and fickle motivations of investors. Social housing can and has worked very well in many cases.
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tommica
1 hour ago
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Where has it been successful, and what counts as success in that? I genuinely do not know.
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BobaFloutist
1 hour ago
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It's been exceptionally successful in Singapore, for one.
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dreijs
5 minutes ago
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I currently live in an HDB property in Singapore. It's great.

I'm originally from the Netherlands, which traditionally had a strong social housing sector: regions and cities would have their own housing corporations ('woningbouwcorporaties') tasked with building affordable housing. Those corporations were given government support after 1950 to help with the post-WW2 housing shortage, but were semi-privatized in the mid-90s, and in 2015 their scope was strongly curtailed.

It would be reductive to say that this privatization was the sole cause of the current housing crisis affecting the Netherlands -- rents and housing prices have also increased a lot in Singapore since Covid -- but it probably didn't help.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
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Primarily Vienna. There's nothing complicated about what Vienna did - other cities just prefer to please billionaires instead of providing services to citizens.
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Plasmoid
1 hour ago
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Do you actually know what Vienna did? Because the overwhelming number of people who reference the city basically just repeat a few dubious talking point about restricting rent.
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eli_gottlieb
53 minutes ago
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I mean, to be fair, having your population semi-permanently depleted by two major wars and a fundamental loss of national economic centrality and prestige will help you keep a fixed stock of social housing lasting longer.
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pyrale
40 minutes ago
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Basically, all of Europe post-WW2. A significant share of new build in the 50s-60s was social housing.
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fny
15 minutes ago
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You can't blame Adams for delinquent payments. He dramatically expanded housing vouchers (the source of the budget crisis) which in theory should have reduced delinquency.

Moreover rents for affordable housing haven't kept up with inflation while benefits have.

Arm chair speculation like what's in the article won't suffice. People need to be surveyed and interviewed to get to the bottom of this.

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manyatoms
1 hour ago
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So say they do get evicted eventually, what are their chances of getting the next rental?
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N_Lens
1 hour ago
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In a Palantir style totalitarian state with panopticon tracking of everyone's every thought, action and history? I'd say pretty good!
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digitaltrees
21 minutes ago
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The founders of palantir didn’t finish reading the books
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laweijfmvo
1 hour ago
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i assume they also owe back payments? with interest?
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ecshafer
1 hour ago
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Blood from a stone. Sure the landlord could theoretically go after them, but they would spend a bunch of money on legal fees for someone that will probably never pay it back.
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alexjplant
7 hours ago
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> “There is a subset of people, maybe the smallest subset, who are literally making a choice not to pay rent, and we don’t do well with acknowledging that but there is a subset for whom that is the case,” [...] Others bristle at the notion that some tenants are not paying rent just because they may be able to get away with it.

These people absolutely exist. To pretend that they don't is willful ignorance. They are, however, indeed a "small[est] subset" to quote the gentleman in the article. In the era of $4 McDoubles and $6 gallons of gas I have trouble believing that one in four people is my burnout college roommate who spends on Fireball shots and Xbox games instead of paying rent. Life is expensive these days.

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jandrewrogers
6 hours ago
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I anecdotally know of a few cases in Seattle where tenants with high incomes that could easily pay just don't. There is a subculture that actively encourages this type of behavior and the laws are setup such that there are almost no consequences for it. I've also met people who bragged about doing it. While rare, it is still common enough that it has become a real problem and has become socially acceptable in some circles.

It is corrosive to the social contract when government policy tacitly encourages this behavior.

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nikkwong
2 hours ago
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It's not rare. I repeat. It's not rare. I am a landlord in Seattle with ~55 active tenants/leases. Let's just say that I know of many landlords in the circles I run in that have absolutely stopped renting to leftie types because they've had so many issues over the last few years with many of them over litigating everything; and deciding not to pay rent over the smallest non-issues, or just not paying rent at all. I could cite case after case; and this topic is especially salient to me in the present moment because I am in fact dealing with one of these tenants right now and its a total nightmare. I will spare you the gruesome details of trying to work with this particular tenant but just trust me—I have an incredibly high tolerance to stress and this individual is doing their best to get as far under my skin as possible.

When the political class or the cultural zeitgeist tells you over and over that landlords are leeches and that "any attempt to profit off of housing is unethical"—people are going to take that to heart and have a hatred for even well-meaning small landlords. If you don't believe this is the attitude, go visit r/Seattle. The inflammatory language of politicians and cultural leaders sets the tone which plays out as legal battles and fights in properties across the city.

This obviously creates an adverse selection problem where small landlords illegally apply their own prejudices and biases in tenant selection. Honestly—could you expect them not to—when the repercussions of picking a bad tenant are so great? And when there are other demographic groups—like immigrants—who are absolutely, verifiably and consistently reliable as tenants. It used to be that it was the section 8 or low income type that were a huge problem but now there's an educated leftish fringe that landlords are also avoiding. Honestly with good reason, IMO.

Some homeowners just decide to not list extra rooms in their house outright. I remember hearing something like that Seattle has the highest number of unrented empty rooms in the country (though someone should fact check that). With the political climate the way it is here, it's obvious as to why this is the case.

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jandrewrogers
1 hour ago
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The net effect is most of the people I know with a rental or two in Seattle will only rent via direct referrals from people they know, which also allows them to rent at a lower rate. Their properties are no longer available to the general public. The demand is high enough that this works. Sucks if you are new to Seattle though.

This kind of non-payment of rent abuse exploded during COVID.

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teachrdan
2 hours ago
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With all due respect, do you consider yourself, with ~55 active tenants/leases, to be a "small landlord"?
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nikkwong
1 hour ago
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Its spread across about ~ 6 houses. I'm definitely a small landlord. I deal with all tenant issues myself, handle all repairs, leases, and most importantly for me—maintain a healthy relationship (which has grown to many friendships). I use this term in contrast to a faceless, corporate landlord who owns larger apartment buildings. Small landlords and corporate landlords are nothing alike
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digitaltrees
16 minutes ago
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55 isn’t small by definition and under the law. You may feel small because it’s just you, and you don’t realize how much you’ve accomplished or the asymmetric bargaining position that affords you but your perspective isn’t corresponding with reality.

That being said, I do think a system that tenant rights to be as abusive of legal process as we have in some states ends up hurting tenants themselves. I think our courts should move much faster so nonpayment is resolved faster. But I also think all landlords should be required to pay 20% of rent to a home building fund so that new housing actually gets built.

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Ekaros
8 minutes ago
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Wouldn't 20% tax on rent just lead to 25% general increase on rents? I don't think there are that much margin around in leveraged landlords.

Really better would be just to bump something like income tax and use money from there for same purpose.

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lovich
1 hour ago
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Being generous with your ~6 number to be either 5 or 7 houses you have either 7.8-11 people per unit?

That's slumlord territory and not any morally better than corporate landlords unless your average unit size is a 4 bed/2 bath.

Also there is zero world where you have 6 houses, 50+ people and can call yourself a small time landlord. That's being able to live entirely off of your rental income and a full time landlord. You could maybe, _maybe_ get away with describing yourself as a medium time landlord.

Small time is living in a 3 floor house and renting the other 2 floors, or owning 1 other home to rent.

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halfxing
28 minutes ago
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I'm sure OP meant 6 houses with several units in it each, not 7-11 people per house. Otherwise the distinction between house and unit doesn't make sense.

This is a small time landlord. Large landlords have easily over 10000 units, and he is one half of a percent of that.

I hope he is able to live off the rental income. It's a big job to manage 55 units and keep everything in shape and administratively going, deal with turnover and so on.

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lovich
26 minutes ago
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nah, having 6 buildings(not houses, if were being precise with terminology here) with multiple units in each, is not a small time landlord. If you can live entirely off the rental income then you are a full time landlord and can at best claim that you aren't a large corporate landlord, but you don't get to invoke the idea that you are some sort of mom and pop situation renting out a spare unit, which is what people assume when you say "small time landlord"
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bombcar
2 hours ago
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I read their story as "I'm not small, but I know a lot of smalls who tell me things they won't even tell their confessor."
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ecshafer
1 hour ago
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> And when there are other demographic groups—like immigrants—who are absolutely, verifiably and consistently reliable as tenants.

I know someone with something like 120 units. Unassuming nice old lady that makes over a million a year. She tries to rent to immigrants as much as possible since they don't cause issues.

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chirau
1 hour ago
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What exactly do you mean by "well meaning small landlord"?
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nikkwong
1 hour ago
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I just try to be the landlord that I would want to have. I respond to my tenants quickly, always give them concessions, let them pay late, or at a discount when they’re struggling, referred them to work at my companies, etc, etc. it’s not all about the money, it’s also being a good member of the community, for me. This is in contrast to a corporate landlord where your $1500 disappears into a void every month.
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digitaltrees
12 minutes ago
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That’s awesome. When I was growing up my parents were denied housing because they had too many kids and were almost homeless one time until a nice landlord of the same religion agreed to rent to us. Please take your responsibility seriously as it seems you do.

That being said there are “professional” tenants that try to scam the system to the detriment of landlords and other tenants. I would fully applaud resistance to their efforts to take advantage of the system.

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klausa
52 minutes ago
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Look, I'm sure you're a nice person and a better landlord than many corporate landlords; and trying to do well.

I'm genuinely glad you're trying, and helping your tenants when you can; but I think you've drunk a bit too much of your own kool-aid.

From perspective of your tenants, that money still goes into a void, no matter how nice you are.

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jandrewrogers
30 minutes ago
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I literally want to have a landlord. They provide a valuable service. I could afford to buy the places where I rent but actively avoid it.

The idea that landlords don’t provide a valuable service is a kind of willful denial of reality.

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digitaltrees
10 minutes ago
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Maybe. But I had a landlord triple my rent in NYC because he wanted to sell the unit. I didn’t want to move but had no option.
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mothballed
15 minutes ago
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Much of the land in New England / northeastern USA was apportioned to proprietors without any service rendered, plus squatting on grandfathered regulations that no one else can take advantage of. The actual improvement is a service, but commonly it's something like a shithole house where the physical manifestation of the improvement is like 10% of the real estate value.

In someplaces like Kansas where people actually mixed their labor with the land (homesteading) to claim it and then improved it and the title transferred in capitalistic exchange, landlords are basically 100% providing a service. But in New York very little of the "value" provided has anything to do with services and labor mixed with the land as someone like Adam Smith envisioned as value generation. It's largely just some proprietor being handed land in the 1600s with the wand of a King, taking the shit by violence, then making regulations out the ass with violence (to make their shithole house pretend to provide a more valuable 'service') and then exempting themselves via grandfathering and then people exchanging title for same. Their service is a legacy of beating the shit out of Indians with weapons and then the populace with government and then allocating the value to themselves.

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tyre
36 minutes ago
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What exactly are you asking for? They clearly are expressing empathy for others’ situations.

I live in a managed building that is completely soulless. I needed to extend my lease by one month before moving out. They wanted me to sign a new 12 month lease at a higher rate, break it, and pay a two month penalty for terminating early. This took over a month to get to something remotely human.

There is absolutely a difference between someone treating people like people and bad landlords.

Also, they aren’t throwing their money into a void. They’re literally getting housing.

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klausa
25 minutes ago
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“Money into a void” is the exact phrase that the _person I’m replying to_ used when comparing themselves to a corporate landlord.
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halfxing
32 minutes ago
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What are you basing your judgment of OP on? He is listing various ways he goes above and beyond for his tenants even though he certainly doesn't have to. Your credit card company doesn't waive your late fees, yet he does when he knows tenants experience hardships. That's pretty awesome.

Also, the money doesn't go into a void: Tenants receive housing in return.

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klausa
19 minutes ago
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What judgment? I literally wrote that they’re a nice person!

“Money into a void” is the phrasing _they_ used!

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dh2022
1 hour ago
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Honest question - how do you know a potential tenant is “leftie type”?
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eli_gottlieb
46 minutes ago
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Don't worry: they'll tell you.
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ecshafer
1 hour ago
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Honestly? not op but that seems easy.
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dh2022
58 minutes ago
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It was an honest question.
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mothballed
45 minutes ago
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The lefty landlords are an even bigger problem for housing affordability than the lefty tenants. They want the anti-property rights boot up the ass of anyone trying to build new homes or dwellings, under the auspices of endangered owls or environmental review or "character of the community" or the wetlands or whatever the current scam is. It's all the same commie shit but only for themselves and at the expense of everyone else, of course dressed up that the dumber and younger end of the tenants actually believe it's in their interest.
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jquery
1 hour ago
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>stopped renting to leftie types

I’m curious how they’re managing to do this. I don’t give any outward signals of being a “leftie type” but I absolutely am. Conversely, I know lots of people who have a very punk look but are super conservative.

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eli_gottlieb
48 minutes ago
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I'd like to try and give you some sympathy, but my last landlord was a well-regarded property management firm who left me with no heat from the end of October to the weekend of Martin Luther King Day in New England, effectively only fixing it once I withheld rent, got on the local news, and was threatening a lawsuit. So, uh... yeah plenty of landlords have done a lot to earn that reputation for the class as a whole.
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alexashka
1 hour ago
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> have a hatred for even well-meaning small landlords

In what way are you well meaning? You're only doing it for money.

The people not paying you rent are also only doing it for money.

Sucks when people behave like you, huh.

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nikkwong
1 hour ago
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Yes I’m doing it for the money, I have to be compensated for my time and the financial investment obviously. People who decide to deceive me break not only a social contract but also a legal contract and a commitment they made at the time of signing a lease. If everyone acted like them, there would be no stable housing available for anyone. Talk about a bad take…
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alexashka
16 minutes ago
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> Yes I’m doing it for the money

Right, so not well meaning. You said well meaning. You're taking that back. Correct?

You're upset at someone maximizing money at your expense. You like it when you maximize money at someone else's expense just fine. Correct?

The world's smallest violin is playing.

Please no 'I'm providing a valuable service' argument. We've already established your only interest is money.

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eli_gottlieb
46 minutes ago
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Society isn't supposed to run on philanthropy.
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alexashka
9 minutes ago
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Dialogue isn't supposed to run on flippant remarks.

Also, you're not qualified to have an opinion on the matter. Dunning-Kruger effect is extra strong when it comes to the holy matter of sociopaths making money in places like these.

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CursedSilicon
5 hours ago
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As someone who also lives in Seattle, I'd be curious to see any verifiable citations to such a wild claim
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itake
3 hours ago
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https://www.nationalreview.com/news/seattle-area-landlord-tr...

One news article mentioned he worked in the medical field and when he was approved to move in, his income was $300k+).

The state actually ended up helping cover the lost rent and paid for the tenant’s legal bills for fighting the eviction.

https://www.discovery.org/a/nightmare-tenant-in-bellevue-con...

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abhinai
5 hours ago
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He said “anecdotally”. In any case, I was wondering that if I know a friend who does this, how could I ever present a verifiable citation for it? You may have to rethink your ask.
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mmooss
2 hours ago
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Sure, but the comment upthread could provide evidence that "it is still common enough that it has become a real problem".
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albedoa
2 hours ago
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Okay. I can anecdotally tell you that user jandrewrogers does not know of any cases in Seattle where tenants with high incomes that could easily pay just don't. Our anecdotes cancel each other out.

> how could I ever present a verifiable citation for it?

There would likely be at least one (1) report of such a wild claim due to how wild it is. We wouldn't need anecdotes!

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CursedSilicon
4 hours ago
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Anecdotes aren't usually admissible as evidence, is the thing
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itake
2 hours ago
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https://www.discovery.org/a/nightmare-tenant-in-bellevue-con...

I’m on phone but if you search “Kim Seattle landlord” you can get more details of various articles on the situation.

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lelandfe
5 hours ago
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CursedSilicon
4 hours ago
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I mean, Elmo's SpaceX is busy lying about being "In Redmond" too (they're in Redmond Ridge, a significantly more rural area about 6 miles away)
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cyberax
3 hours ago
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There are such people. I have a unit in Seattle that sits empty because I don't want to risk getting stuck with such tenants.

In Seattle, you can't:

1. Evict people from November to April (it's "winter"). 2. Evict people with schoolchildren during the school year. 3. Run background checks on prospective tenants. 4. You _must_ rent to the first qualifying tenant. 5. You must offer 3 months in rent as compensation if you decline to renew the lease. 6. The maximum rent increase is capped.

Oh, and eviction process takes about 1.5 years now because the courts are overloaded and the tenant can use procedural tricks to drag out the process.

If you want names, this case made newspapers: https://wealthandpoverty.center/2025/02/11/the-bellevue-squa...

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Loudergood
1 hour ago
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I don't understand why you wouldn't sell and invest elsewhere in this case.
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jandrewrogers
51 minutes ago
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Many people do. I certainly never wanted anything to do with that rental market when I had a vacant condo.

The unintended consequence is that there are closed rental networks that never advertise and only rent to vetted people with reputation on the line. These often have cheaper rents than publicly advertised rental properties because the risk of bad tenants has been reduced.

It turns the public rental market into an adverse selection phenomenon. Over time, the best tenants have access to cheaper better rentals that are never even visible to the average rental tenant.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
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Apparently, even with all these rules designed to damage the profitability of landlords, being landlord must be extremely profitable as they keep doing it.
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pixelatedindex
2 hours ago
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Apart from maybe being a little more flexible on evictions, none of the other reasons seem problematic.

For instance not renting to the first qualifying tenant is a common root for discrimination. Why wouldn’t you rent to the first qualifying candidate?

The giving tenant three month rent thing is for a very small circumstance - for example huge rent increases if the tenant income is low, condo remodeling, etc. The wording is: “landlords who issue a housing cost increase of 10% or more (within a 12-month period) must pay relocation assistance if the affected household earns 80% or less of the Area Median Income and chooses to move.”

Maximum rent increase being capped also makes sense - I’ve been hit with 15-20% rent increases with no choice but to move.

It seems like you don’t like the tenant having any rights, and you want to impose your will upon them.

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halfxing
24 minutes ago
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Are you also wanting a company to have to hire the first qualifying candidate and immediately stop all hiring? That is nonsensical. A landlord and a tenant should be free to contract as both parties wish.
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nikkwong
2 hours ago
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This is an insanely bad take.

> For instance not renting to the first qualifying tenant is a common root for discrimination. Why wouldn’t you rent to the first qualifying candidate?

You should be able to select freely who you want to have live in your house. If you're a building owner, there are reasons that you might want to be able to have freedom of choice in choosing who you have live in your building. When the government forces you to choose the first applicant who meets your selection criteria, your selection criteria becomes incredibly strict—720+ credit score, makes 4x the rent, etc. Especially when evicting a bad tenant becomes basically impossible, landlords work even harder to vet candidates, meaning there are a lot of false negatives that aren't offered housing. Seriously, you can't evict a tenant just because its winter? You know how many people take advantage of that — read my sibling comment in my thread. I myself in Seattle have dealt with multiple tenants who have done this so they could have free rent as their lease expired. What do you think this does to my tenant selection process? I up the bar.

> Maximum rent increase being capped also makes sense - I’ve been hit with 15-20% rent increases with no choice but to move.

You act like there's an oligopoly that dictates rent prices from their mountaintop that we all have to abide by. We live in a free market, and small landlords compete with large buildings for tenants. Creating these types of caps just makes the system less efficient — focuses efforts on the false pretense of tenants rights rather than the true equalizer like building more housing. And honestly, it just drives small landlords out of the market who can't handle it. This just leaves corporate landlords who are certainly less tenant friendly and will further this tenant vs landlord arms-race. We should be creating incentives and making it easy for individual homeowners to become landlords (at least in Seattle) if we want the paradigm to improve.

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craftkiller
1 hour ago
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> You should be able to select freely who you want to have live in your house

We already tried that. It turns out that people are racist, so now we need laws to protect against that. It sucks for all the decent non-racist folks but the alternative of not having those protections was far worse.

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nikkwong
1 hour ago
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If you force people to have someone in their house that they don't want, they are not going to rent their house out. This will lead to less units on the market. Your point about racism is fair, but I don't think the answer is a solution that reduces rentable units on the market.
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craftkiller
1 hour ago
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What alternative solution to housing-related racism would you suggest?
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derektank
1 hour ago
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The one that actually exists? Have you never heard of the HUD fair housing initiatives programs? You hire a white actor and a black actor with the same job, income, credit, etc and if a landlord consistently refuses to rent to the black actors, you sic the DoJ on them for violating the Fair Housing Act
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craftkiller
42 minutes ago
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Nope, I hadn't heard of that. Neat. I see two problems though:

1. I can see this being effective against larger landlord that will have many units available every year, ensuring that adequate testing can be performed. But on smaller landlords with only a few units, it seems like it'd be hard to test. (for example, you get rejected from an apartment. The landlord rents it out to someone else. You file a FHIP complaint, but the landlord no longer has any units available so they cannot test.)

2. It seems like this is largely driven by complaints? If I was rejected from an apartment, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to glean whether or not it was based on race.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Okay, sell it to someone who will live there then. You're not a saint for taking a unit someone wants to buy and forcing them to rent instead.
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CamperBob2
1 hour ago
[-]
How is renting different from hiring in that regard? Nobody would consider requiring employers to hire the first qualified candidate, but at the same time, we don't allow employers to discriminate on the basis of race.

Why couldn't the same law apply to residential leasing?

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craftkiller
1 hour ago
[-]
Are we sure that law is working as intended? Or are employers simply not admitting to factoring race into the decision? It is next to impossible to prove a candidate was rejected on the basis of race, especially when you can legally reject someone for not being a "culture fit" on the team.

I'd also argue the stakes are higher when leasing, so landlords will be less likely to take a chance on a race they don't like. Most jobs in the US are at-will employment so you can be fired at any time for almost any reason, but evicting a tenant can be a long process.

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pixelatedindex
1 hour ago
[-]
> You should be able to select freely who you want to have live in your house. If you're a building owner, there are reasons that you might want to be able to have freedom of choice in choosing who you have live in your building.

That’s basically discrimination? Make a strict selection criteria, that’s fine. The city also has affordable housing for people who don’t qualify. You set what works for you, why do you care if it’s too strict?

I am not acting like there is an oligopoly, but not having tenant protections means tenants are at the mercy of shitty landlords. And there are a TON of them. Am I not supposed to have any rights, and the landlords gets to do whatever they want? Free market doesn’t mean regulation free.

Edit: you said “We should be creating incentives and making it easy for individual homeowners to become landlords (at least in Seattle) if we want the paradigm to improve.” - what do you propose? What about landlords who don’t want housing built because they like owning a scarce asset? What kind of rights do you think tenants should have?

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derektank
1 hour ago
[-]
Yes, discrimination based upon characteristics that aren't immutable is perfectly fine and something we do every day. I discriminate against my neighbor who invited me over drinks in favor of my best friend who invited me to his birthday. I discriminate against the potential hire who doesn’t have experience in this line of work in favor of the person who’s a nationally renowned expert. I discriminate against a tenant with a history of failing to make rent in favor of someone who consistently provides payment every month. People are different and valuing one over another in specific contexts is hardly scandalous. It only becomes a proble if you decide to discriminate against someone based upon immutable characteristics such as their race, sex, national origin, etc. because you’re not treating them as an individual.
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pixelatedindex
1 hour ago
[-]
I get where you’re coming from, but none of them are scarce inelastic resources. The work one especially doesn’t feel like discrimination.

It’s also very different - you’re hiring someone to do a job for you, vs wanting someone who’ll pay rent on time and not destroy the property. A mediocre employee vs an excellent employee can make any huge difference to a business.

That’s not the case with renters - if person A and person B both pay on time and don’t trash the place then they are quite fungible.

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halfxing
19 minutes ago
[-]
Your experience as a renter is not the same as the experience of a landlord. If you've been on your first job for a month and you pinky swear to pay rent on time and the next candidate has been on their job for 3 years then I'll take that candidate every time. It's a risk calculation. You are more likely to lose your job than the other candidate, and when you do and can't pay rent anymore and won't leave then that is a very expensive problem for me.

The same goes for savings, credit score, and other factors. These are not nearly as fungible as you seem to think.

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jpalawaga
50 minutes ago
[-]
I've lived in properties with no form of rent control whatsoever. Landlords issuing 10%+ rent increases is awful. it denies you the stability that's granted by fair/consistent rent increases. It erodes the community fabric by having a revolving door of tenants who live there 1-2 years before leaving.

I do agree that we should focus on other remedies such as building more. However, even in a market with ample housing, I'm not convinced that some Landlords would still just as happily take the 'I bet they'd rather a 10% rent increase than deal with the hassle of moving' gamble.

Most of the people I've met who are anti rent control/stabilization usually don't have the pleasure of a landlord who has decided to engage in such tactics. Almost always they argue from some place of guaranteed housing safety.

this is an issue that applies to people making 30k and also people making 300k.

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ekelsen
24 minutes ago
[-]
You could sign a longer lease and get the stability you desire. Negotiate a five year lease and stability is yours.
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itake
2 hours ago
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I explicitly bought in Lynwood so I’d have the option to rent out my house and avoid king county
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DanHulton
2 hours ago
[-]
Nothing on that list sounds like a particular hardship. Your "Oh, and" is unfortunate and ought to be addressed, but then again, that was intended as your cherry-topper, not your main course.

This is people's _homes_ we're talking about here, not a baseball card where privileging the owner is without too much consequence. If you lack the empathy to understand why this is a special case, maybe don't be a landlord.

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naturalmovement
1 hour ago
[-]
Actually landlords have a reasonable expectation you don't turn _their home_ into a crack house and no one should be forced to rent to scumbags.
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ytoawwhra92
3 minutes ago
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> _their home_

It's not their home.

They can't walk in, wipe their shoes on the hallway rug, make a pot of coffee, use the bathroom, turn on the TV, and take a nap on the couch. At least not without their tenant's invitation.

When they chose to rent out the house they yielded some of their property rights. The old landlord argument that "it's my house I should be able to XYZ" doesn't hold water.

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JuniperMesos
1 hour ago
[-]
So do other nearby tenants who aren't crack users.
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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Why should landlords have that expectation? I think the default case should be that when someone rents a space they have freedom to do what they want with that space until they stop renting it, and then when they stop renting it they must be forced to return it to its original condition.

Did you know in Australia it's normal to give your landlord a tour of your house every 3 months to prove you haven't broken it? That's completely ridiculous.

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halfxing
11 minutes ago
[-]
And how exactly do you "force" the deadbeat broke tenant that trashed your house to return it to its original condition?
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rdtsc
5 hours ago
[-]
> They are, however, indeed a "small[est] subset" to quote the gentleman in the article.

The numbers don't have to stay small because this behavior is not generated independently in a population. Multiple people may become aware of it by talking to each other, social media, forums, some crazy news event that refers to it, etc. All of the sudden a lot more people decide they can do it as well and tell their friends.

I am not defending it or saying one side is right or wrong just that when it comes to things like this there may be a different model at play on how this behavior is generated.

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naturalmovement
6 hours ago
[-]
There's entire Reddit communities of these people where they encourage and validate their shitty behavior.

With some of the stories I've read, you'd have to be positively insane to be a small-time landlord these days, especially in these large cities with kooky renter protections that make it nearly impossible to evict someone.

Go watch Pacific Heights with Michael Keaton for a fictionalized account but this stuff absolutely happens every day.

I saw one recently where the renter has not paid rent for six years and is unable to be evicted. It made national news.

So where does that leave the industry? You eventually push out the mom and pop landlords by making the regulations so insane it only leaves behind the large corporate property management companies and their army of lawyers. Who will collude and drive rents up. It's a vicious cycle and these cities are not helping one bit.

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pixelatedindex
2 hours ago
[-]
Doesn’t help that the landlords want to squeeze the renter for what they are worth. It’s weird to me that shitty landlords are normalized but shitty tenants get a (rightfully) bad rap.

These laws become the way they are because landlords brought it upon themselves for the most part - they’re keeping assets that have massively increased in price and want to extract more and more out of the tenant.

If you have a home that’s paid off your expenses are basically just property taxes, maybe they should do what they can to keep good tenants instead of chasing profits.

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jjav
1 hour ago
[-]
> These laws become the way they are because landlords brought it upon themselves for the most part

These laws seem quite unrelated to the problems.

There needs to be laws to protect the renter against bad landlords and there needs to be laws to protect the landlord against bad tenants.

Nowhere there it implies there should be insane laws that make no sense. Such as creating a system where someone can skip paying rent for many years and continue to live there.

Landlords need laws that hold their feet to the fire to maintain the properties to a livable standard (the state/county should define) and fulfill any other obligations of the lease. At the same time there need to be laws that force the renters to pay on time and not destroy the property. It's not a case of one or the other.

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pixelatedindex
1 hour ago
[-]
I’m not denying any of that. If you don’t pay rent it makes sense that you’re evicted. This is completely okay with me, and the city should change their rules around it.

The issue is that housing is a necessity, and the relationship isn’t an equal one. A landlord can usually absorb vacancy, repairs, or a bad investment decision; a renter can’t easily absorb losing their home or a sudden 20% rent increase.

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halfxing
6 minutes ago
[-]
Totally wrong. A home has a lot of expenses beyond taxes, especially maintenance/upkeep. If the landlord just breaks even, where does the money to repair the roof come from?

Also, providing housing is a service that should be done at market rates, and as an investment must yield a return to make sense. Or do you expect stock investments to yield nothing and just retain their value too? Should companies not raise their prices for goods? Do you realize that this also means that you would never get a salary increase? Are you never asking for a raise because you'd be "chasing profits" for yourself?

There's a huge lack of financial literacy in some of these comments.

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bombcar
1 hour ago
[-]
Rental prices stay surprisingly steady even when house prices go insane - compare similar apartments/houses in major expensive cities and cheaper ones.
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pixelatedindex
1 hour ago
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Sure but the rent will follow the increased purchase price. They also don’t go down, or at least they’re extremely sticky.
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bombcar
1 hour ago
[-]
They're limited by what people will pay - and "techbro" cities have people with insane salaries willing to fork over big bucks. But there are similarly expensive areas that don't support the income necessary, and there often you find huge rental inversions.
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casefields
56 minutes ago
[-]
Nonsense. We came up with a name for those terrible landlords they are called slumlords. NYC even has a whole website dedicated to them: https://www.landlordwatchlist.com/
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nradov
6 hours ago
[-]
Tenant "protection" laws are the type of idiocy that economically illiterate progressive politicians always produce. They end up having the opposite effect by making property owners less willing to rent out to anyone. The only effective way to protect tenants is to set public policies that encourage new housing development. When there is a housing surplus, the laws of economics force landlords to treat tenants well. Build more housing!
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toast0
2 hours ago
[-]
Tentant protection laws are always a matter of degree.

Requiring a process in order to evict tennants is a good thing. If the process is unsatisfyable or extremely lengthy, I don't think it's a good thing anymore. There should be a way to get destructive and severely disruptive tenants out in a hurry. Ordinary breach of contract things (failure to pay rent, problematic behaviors that violate the lease but aren't an immediate issue, etc) should have something like a 3-7 notice period and then be referred to court and figured out without undue delay.

I'm ok with limiting the reason for the landlord ending a lease, especially where the tenant has stayed there for a long time.

IMHO rent control/rent stabilization can be useful when the cap isn't set too low, and there's reasonable ways to pass through less predictable costs. If the cap is too low, rent gets significantly behind the market rent which causes trouble for landlords but also leads to situations where renters end up stuck where they are; maybe better than being forced out but not if the property deteriorates. If the cap is too high, it doesn't provide meaningful stability or a planning horizon for tenants. If it's in the right place, it gives renters reasonable time to adjust to market changes. Again, IMHO, 3% is probably too low, 10% may be too high, somewhere in the middle is nice to have.

Tenant protections setting deposit limits and process for assessing against the deposit seem reasonable to me. Landlords are going to screw tenants out of deposits if they can, regardless of the market realities, because the relationship is over, the renter is busy with other stuff, and the landlord has the money.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Is there any morally valid reason to evict a tenant other than nonpayment of rent? For bad behavior that should be between them and the police, not you.
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jandrewrogers
41 minutes ago
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Absolutely. The law with respect to behavior has almost no force within multi-tenant buildings. It is primarily subject to contract law. The police have no power there. Tenants that repeatedly violate the contractual rights of other tenants have few remedies beyond eviction.

A single asshole can destroy an entire building.

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bizzletk
24 minutes ago
[-]
Not all bad behavior meets the threshold of police intervention.

Here's a nearly-strawman-but-definitionally-valid example: a landlord may want to remove a tenant who's being unusually hard on the place and accelerating the wear-and-tear. Could be serious enough that paying the tenant to go away would be cheaper than the cost to remediate the damage accrued over the length of the contract.

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Plasmoid
1 hour ago
[-]
Tampering with smoke detectors
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woodruffw
5 hours ago
[-]
There's an economic floor for the price of housing: the amortized cost of the building and its maintenance, plus taxes and overhead imposed by governments, utilities, mortgages, etc.

In other words: even in a plentiful housing market, there will always be someone who struggles to pay rent (including transiently), because a rational housing market can't offer $0 rents. Tenant protection laws exist to protect that person from a landlord who would otherwise be incentivized to throw them onto the street.

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itake
2 hours ago
[-]
Yeah… these laws for private landlords to subsidize housing for other families.

If you only have 1 rental property and your tenant doesn’t pay, that’s a 100% loss of revenue while your family personally bears the cost of supporting this other family.

Whereas corporate landlords can absorb these losses by raising rents on 100 doors to cover the families that refuse to pay

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Don't rent it then. All these laws are designed to make being a landlord hell so that people won't be landlords.
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halfxing
3 minutes ago
[-]
So, you would like there to be less housing, which makes housing more scarce and raises prices on everyone else?
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asdff
1 hour ago
[-]
Maybe the lesson is just to not be so overleveraged.
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itake
45 minutes ago
[-]
If grandma pays 90% less taxes than me (prop13), where is the leverage?

If grandma bought the the house in 1990 and property values have risen faster than wages and inflation, where is the leverage?

If grandma is under insured, either due to the insurance company not updating coverages with inflation or no insurance bc she isn’t required to, where is the leverage?

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senectus1
5 hours ago
[-]
sure because a property owner is going to not rent out a property and just take the month on month hit for having an empty property. They'll either rent it or sell it.

There is a middle ground, just need to find that point.

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nradov
5 hours ago
[-]
Apparently you haven't been paying attention to what's happening in the rental market. Landlords in cities with strong tenant protection laws will absolutely leave a unit vacant for months until they find someone with a high income ratio and credit score. This leaves poorer people stuck with no options.
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mmooss
2 hours ago
[-]
Do you have evidence? There is evidence that RealPage software illegally coordinated (maybe coordinates) landlords in keeping units off the market in order to reduce demand and increase prices for everyone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/24/technology/realpage-doj-s...

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itake
2 hours ago
[-]
Me (and others in this thread).

I have a 5 bedroom house that I rent out 2 rooms, but not interested in accepting more people unless they are friends or have a very high income.

At my home’s peak, we had 6 adults living there, now its at 50% capacity.

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verall
2 hours ago
[-]
How many high income individuals want to share a house with 5 strangers?
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itake
1 hour ago
[-]
Apparently not many hence the empty house.

In SF and Seattle during hiring booms, a lot of young workers move to the city with no social connections, so they start their new life in hacker houses to kickstart their friend group.

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bombcar
1 hour ago
[-]
It's surprisingly common in places like SF, and near popular colleges.
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archagon
3 hours ago
[-]
Vacancy tax. No one should have the right to buy multiple, rentable homes and keep them unused in the middle of a housing crisis. It’s sociopathic.
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mx7zysuj4xew
1 hour ago
[-]
So in the Netherlands, For many years any property left vacant and unused dor more than a year could be legally squatted.

it forced landlords to keep their properties on the market and insured full usage of the severely limited available housing stock

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archagon
3 hours ago
[-]
Do you own your own house? Are you rich?

I’ve known acquaintances who got de facto evicted without warning just because their landlord decided to make a few extra bucks. Were that to happen to me, I would not be able to rent in my current city at all due to the recent influx of wealthy tech workers. (Read: extremely high rents with ridiculous income requirements.) Fortunately, my city has robust tenant protections and rent control, so I don’t have to live my life in fear of ending up on the curb. Some people see that as a bad thing; I guess they think I should save up a few million dollars to buy a condo or abandon my community and move to the boonies.

This would be less of an issue with more housing stock, but that takes decades to build. As a city resident inconveniently living in the present, that does not help me much.

Obviously, I’d never vote for a politician who would make it easier for a landlord to evict me arbitrarily. And I’d eagerly vote for the same protections for any other renter.

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itake
2 hours ago
[-]
I think you’re leaving details out of your story. If the landlord wants to make a few bucks, then they keep their good tenants (lowers vacancy rate, keeps repairs low, etc).

Kicking out good tenants cost landlords money.

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archagon
2 hours ago
[-]
It’s pretty simple. There’s a tech boom or similar, a bunch of rich workers move in, rents go up. Landlord spikes rent by 30% to take advantage. You can see this happening in r/sanfrancisco today, for non-rent-controlled units.
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itake
2 hours ago
[-]
Sf is kinda a mess. Sf’s rent control also means tenants can’t leave (locking up more housing, reducing supply, forcing everyone else to pay more), thus continue to discourage rent controlled tenants from moving since moving means even higher prices.

The property tax situation in SF is a mess.

SF also requires a lot of expensive regulations (earthquake proofing, renovation permits, rising California insurance costs, etc).

Also… the unfortunate reality is there is only so much space and the capital markets determine who gets to live where. If you’re not able to keep up in a city, then there are better places for you.

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craftkiller
2 hours ago
[-]
> Sf’s rent control also means tenants can’t leave

They have exactly as much freedom to leave as they would without rent control. They _choose_ to stay because rent control has made it advantageous to stay. The way you phrased it implies you're suggesting this is a bad thing for renters but that is strictly a positive. Without rent control they'd have zero affordable options, with rent control they have 1 affordable option. Woe to the inhabitants of rent controlled apartments with their golden handcuffs.

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itake
1 hour ago
[-]
Rent control drives up rent prices for everyone.

So yes, if you have rent control in a city, it would create an environment with zero affordable options.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Obviously it does not drive up the rent price of the person who is paying less rent. That's the whole point. The residents of SF have voted to prevent you from taking their apartments, so if you don't want to bid very competitively for an already empty apartment, you'll just have to take an apartment somewhere else.
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majormajor
1 hour ago
[-]
> Sf’s rent control also means tenants can’t leave (locking up more housing, reducing supply, forcing everyone else to pay more), thus continue to discourage rent controlled tenants from moving since moving means even higher prices.

This is disingenuous. In the absence of rent control (or prop 13 for property owners) you famously get a situation where tenants ALSO can't afford to leave... but have to anyway.

Why should anyone be forced to leave just because someone richer wants to move in?

You don't have to support someone being unable to evict people who don't pay to believe that there should be limits on how much landlords (or the state, in the case of prop 13) should be able to force current residents to leave just to make a quick buck.

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itake
1 hour ago
[-]
> Why should anyone be forced to leave just because someone richer wants to move in?

This triggers my other frustration: empty nesters. They continue to live in great 3-4 bedroom homes that are amazing to raise a family in (near job centers, plenty of bedrooms, tight community, near good schools). This forces people like myself to spend 85+ minutes in a car (away from my family, friends etc) everyday while I drive past all these amazing empty homes.

Yes, if you’re not using the space efficiently, GTFO and let people have the space! Let dad have more time with his kids. Let the tech bro that created 10m jobs and have more time with his wife and kid. Let people burn less fossil fuels to get to work.

Rent-controlled/prop13 grandma needs to find another place to live for the next generation.

Someone living alone in a rent controlled unit paying below market rates is much “richer” than a family of 4 paying 5x more cramped into a 2 bedroom apartment.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Maybe you could offer a trade. Swap your home for theirs and pay them some rent for it.
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itake
52 minutes ago
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AFAIK, you're not allowed to sublease a rent-controlled unit.

If they own their home, many old people made their bag and aren't interested in being landlords in retirement.

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nradov
2 hours ago
[-]
It sounds like you're living in a badly governed city. Have you considered voting for politicians with an abundance agenda? Or moving to a city with more intelligent housing policies such as Dallas?
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majormajor
1 hour ago
[-]
NIMBYism and single-family zoning are alive and thriving in Dallas; what Dallas has is this thing called a huge-fucking-flat-prairie all around it that means Frisco, Addison, etc, have been able to add to the low-density car-centric sprawl and help keep prices down some.

(But even then, plenty of Dallas residents have been upset in the past decade by what happens to rental prices when a bunch of higher-income folks move to town!)

One wonders why the people who don't want to have to leave a city like San Fransisco just cause some other people have more money than them and want to raise their rents out of their reach are the ones who should move to Texas. Why shouldn't the would-be newcomers just be the ones go to all those cookie-cutter new developments?

If you jumped back in time 20 years ago and were able to ensure that YCombinator, OpenAI, Anthropic, Salesforce, and other high-paper-valuation companies, and they all had imported their from-out-of-town high-income-or-equity-leveraging employees to McKinney, Texas, not much materially would prevent those companies from still doing what they did. But people who already lived in SF or on the peninsula but didn't own much land there would have a materially better standard of living due to their costs not running away from their existing incomes. And the Texas burbs happily would've built a shit-ton of houses and apartments for the startup workers, because of the aforementioned giant quantities of near-empty land. Greenfield businesses for greenfield real-estate. Much better fit than force-transforming cities.

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sp527
2 hours ago
[-]
> I guess they think I should save up a few million dollars to buy a condo or abandon my community and move to the boonies.

If you can't afford to live in your city, what distinguishes you from the people in the boonies? Why should they be relegated to the boonies while you successfully game the system?

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archagon
2 hours ago
[-]
I can afford to live in my city. I’m living in it right now! The nice thing is that I don’t get pushed out by arbitrary economic fluctuations completely out of my control.
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ekelsen
2 hours ago
[-]
If only we could all get free protection from economic forces we don't control.

That kind of insurance is usually pretty expensive. Why should you get it for free?

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Why shouldn't everyone get everything for free that can be provided for free? Forcing other people to pay a cost because you paid a cost is just sour grapes.
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jandrewrogers
36 minutes ago
[-]
It can’t be provide for free, that’s the point. Mitigating risks has costs that you are ignoring. Those costs aren’t cheap and someone has to pay for them.
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ekelsen
32 minutes ago
[-]
Except it's not free. It's free to you but not others.
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archagon
12 minutes ago
[-]
One, we vote for it, and there's far more renters out there than owners. Sorry.

Two, there are many "free protections" that are taken for granted at our stage of civilizational development. Should fire departments be privatized? Police? I'd argue that housing security is even more important than those. We bear the costs together so that our lives are collectively better.

Three, your entire framing is kind of bananas. Rent control is neither insurance nor expensive, but a cap on landlord profits. If anything, it's unbounded profiteering of basic necessities that's actually "expensive."

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majormajor
1 hour ago
[-]
> If only we could all get free protection from economic forces we don't control.

> That kind of insurance is usually pretty expensive. Why should you get it for free?

Protecting its constituents from the whims of out-of-town money seems like an excellent purpose for a local government. Especially if some of that money wants to move in so badly that it can be very profitably taxed!

Why shouldn't local government try to serve its constituents like that?

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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Because I'm rich, and I want to live in SF dagnabbit, and how dare the (checks notes) existing residents of SF vote to block me from taking one of their apartments that I obviously deserve to live in more than they do because I'm rich?
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sp527
36 minutes ago
[-]
By that logic, we should let the Ohlone tribes underbid all existing residents. They too are just rich assholes who simply displaced those who were there before them.
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sp527
2 hours ago
[-]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your comment suggested you'd be unable to afford market rent.
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archagon
2 hours ago
[-]
I can afford to live in my city because my landlord isn’t able to tack an extra $2000 to my rent due to the sudden influx of AI bros.
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sp527
1 hour ago
[-]
Pity the boonyman who was afforded no such luxury
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inigyou
1 hour ago
[-]
Are AI bros infesting the boonies now
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pixelatedindex
2 hours ago
[-]
> The only effective way to protect tenants is to set public policies that encourage new housing development

Which the local landowning population promptly block with NIMBY tactics. Have you wondered if that has any impact? Not everything is some progressive boogeyman.

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rationalist
6 hours ago
[-]
I have friends and coworkers that want to have rental properties, and I advise them it's not worth it.

I don't want to be in a position where I have to pay more to fix damages than I collectected in rent if I accidentally rent to deadbeats. Or in a position where I have to provide services to someone not paying me.

One of those friends has parents that rented out their old house to deadbeats at the top of the housing market instead of selling it. Those deadbeats have been nothing but trouble and yet my friend still wants to be a landlord.

Somehow the idea of owning rental properties became a pervasive notion in the U.S.

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_DeadFred_
4 hours ago
[-]
Wage theft is the number one form of theft in the USA at around $15 billion. Hopefully you advised your friends to avoid working for wages as that is the number one way to be ripped off by deadbeats in the USA.

Somehow the idea of working for wages became a pervasive notion in the U.S.

https://www.denver7.com/news/national-politics/the-race/wage...

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cherry_tree
3 hours ago
[-]
Landlords typically have insurance coverage for damage by tenants, including lost rent.
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itake
2 hours ago
[-]
It’s hard for new landlords. People that bought houses to rent compete against property owners of paid off homes or people with 3% mortgages.

Tacking on optional insurance products on a property that’s already in the red further encourages landlords to push up rents prices.

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mx7zysuj4xew
1 hour ago
[-]
Well yeah, it's also hard for any random person to start an oil conglomerate having to compete against ExxonMobil
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bombcar
1 hour ago
[-]
This form of insurance is exceeding expensive and exceedingly rare. Large buildings self-insure (by having a ton of doors) and small landlords don't want to pay it.
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ethbr1
3 hours ago
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> especially in these large cities with kooky renter protections that make it nearly impossible to evict someone

The problem is that there will always be more voting renters than voting landlords. So in a purely democratic system, policies which favor renters at the expense of landlords will always be supported.

And that said, some renter protections are definitely needed, because there is a subset of landlords that engage in flat out illegal behavior.

Deposit withholding, making illegal demands, illegal renter selection practices, etc.

Imho, that tends to be concentrated in the "1-5 unit" landlord range, because those landlords are usually (a) not lawyers & (b) treat their properties like pets instead of a business.

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pixelatedindex
2 hours ago
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> The problem is that there will always be more voting renters than voting landlords. So in a purely democratic system, policies which favor renters at the expense of landlords will always be supported.

I don’t know about that… the voting landlords (NIMBYs) sure make it a point to reduce development “to preserve their neighborhood character”.

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BrenBarn
2 hours ago
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The way to handle this, which no one seems to be willing to face, is to make laws that are not wealth-neutral. If you are a mom-and-pop landlord (with a relatively low net worth), your should have more leeway in dealing with tenants. If you are a large landlord, you should have very little. Couple this with ruinous penalties (e.g., full forfeiture) for attempting to hide the true beneficial ownership of the property.
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bombcar
1 hour ago
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In many locations, this exists in practice - especially if you rent parts of a building that you reside in (one half of a duplex or 1/4th of a quadplex, etc).

In some cases, anti-discrimination laws don't even apply.

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jen20
6 hours ago
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If you think the Reddit communities of tenants are bad, you should try reading the Reddit communities of landlords (at least the UK ones).
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mc3301
6 hours ago
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Yeah.... So many bad tenants. So many bad landlords... So many weird laws protecting and hurting both.

What if we shifted to a different system?

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inigyou
1 hour ago
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Then housing couldn't be used as retirement savings and the economy would collapse immediately
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mc3301
46 minutes ago
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A creative solution! What if we rethought what "retirement savings" is and should be?
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weakfish
5 hours ago
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The question that many do not want to think about. We (as a society (referring to all Western Liberalism, not just the US)) are so thoroughly convinced that Liberal Democracy is the End of History, and it's the 'flawed but best,' as many say, but refuse to imagine something better.

It's puzzling that a system that is supposed to reward creativity and genius like capitalism limits it's inhabitants in their imagination when it comes to how one might structure society.

I don't claim to have the answer, and _no,_ my issues with Liberal Democracy/Capitalism don't mean I'm a communist / socialist / thing-people-don't-like.

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_DeadFred_
3 hours ago
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It's not Liberal Democracy that is the problem but a society where all of the slack has been optimized out, every extraction maximized, every infraction forever a scarlet letter on an individual, zero stability but constant crisis inflicted on individuals. There is no room in modern day America for people in the margins. Society needs to make a place for them and a path out of constant crisis, or the homeless problem will continue to grow.

Another hidden issue in the USA is many households are dependent on contributing income from a retired/disabled/working past retirement age elderly parent/family member. Those people are going to start passing in mass, and a lot of households will become even less resilient.

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nradov
5 hours ago
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What would you like us to imagine? So far everything that we've tried at scale other than liberal democracy and capitalism has inevitably led to war, famine, and genocide. Western liberalism appears to be the only system that empirically works. Some would claim that "socialism with Chinese characteristics" works better, but if you look below the surface prosperity in first-tier cities the actual economic situation is rather grim and the human rights situation is horrific.
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margalabargala
4 hours ago
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Arguably, benevolent dictatorships tend to be the best. Singapore is a good example.

The trouble is making a system that can guarantee the "benevolent" part in the longer term.

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mmooss
2 hours ago
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Make an argument, beyond one city (if it's true there - Singapore might be better off, on some of the best real estate in the world, with free elections)? All the most free, wealthy, safe, creative, innovative societies in the world are democratic.

And on what basis does some dictator get to tell others what to do? OK, I am the dictator and I'm telling you to give me 10% of your income and never post this nonsense in HN again. :)

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margalabargala
2 hours ago
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There are a lot of values there that.you're presenting as though "this is what society should be" when it's actually "this is what liberal democracy thinks society should be". So obviously we have a foregone conclusion.

Plenty of societies happily trade away one or more of those values for other values.

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mmooss
1 hour ago
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That's not an argument: You don't specify which values, don't address my argument, and just repeat an old trope of dictators and their apologists with no support.

> Plenty of societies happily trade away one or more of those values for other values.

Which ones? Let's hear some evidence.

People around the world strongly embrace and defend their freedom, including self-determination; the idea that it's not universal (in any meaningful sense) has little support. It's embraced wherever people have the opportunity in Europe and N. America, in East Asia, in China (Taiwan, and also Hong Kong until it was taken from them), S. America, SE Asia, South Asia, a variety of places in Africa, ... you can see the mass protests in Iran, the Arab Spring, etc.

And rationally, again, why should you or anyone else tell me what to do? On that basis, why can't I just as well tell you or them what to do?

Human rights' universality is essential - without it, it's just people fighting for power. That's why it's so important, and that's why those who want to control others try to attack the universality.

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inigyou
1 hour ago
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Democracy isn't freedom. It's quite easily possible for a democracy to be non-free (many current examples) or for a non-democracy to be free (not as many).
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inigyou
1 hour ago
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If everything but liberal democracy and capitalism lead to war, famine, and genocide, and we're currently trying capitalism and it's not working, then maybe it's time to try liberal democracy
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8note
6 hours ago
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This is a bit of an intentional result, no?

the goal is for peoppe to own the places they live in

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nradov
6 hours ago
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Why should that be a goal?
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fyredge
6 hours ago
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To discourage rent seeking behaviour?
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CursedSilicon
5 hours ago
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Because every human being needs shelter?
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nradov
5 hours ago
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Having shelter is not the same as owning real estate.
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morkalork
6 hours ago
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In my city, and I assume many others, there's an informal landlord's group that shares lists of problem tenants to avoid renting to. While problematic, I wonder if it's made any impact.
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seanmcdirmid
6 hours ago
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Usually this is handled with credit reports right? It’s only when the state forbids landlords from demanding credit reports that informal networks are necessary.

In general as a tenant you can only get away with not paying rent once (until eviction happens, no one will ever rent to you again without federal or state assurances), and as a landlord you will only skip the credit report requirement once (because your first tenant is going to be a deadbeat who screw’s you).

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nradov
6 hours ago
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In cities with excessive tenant protection laws, sometimes landlords will negotiate agreements with deadbeat tenants in which the tenant agrees to leave and the landlord doesn't report anything to the credit bureaus.
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polski-g
5 hours ago
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Credit reports do not have a section for "plays music loudly" or "secretly smokes by the bathroom window".
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inigyou
1 hour ago
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Why's that anything to do with you. Call the cops.
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toast0
3 hours ago
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They can have a section of public records if anything rises to the level of filing with the courts.
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toofy
6 hours ago
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i occasionally come across some of the forums and online groups of landlords and the things they have to deal with, particularly in cities with strong protections for the tenants and its interesting to watch the perspectives.

on one hand i feel for some of the landlords who have to deal with some of the very real slacks who go out of their way to be difficult tenants.

on the other we’re talking about homes, by this i mean to stress home over investment. i think we’ve made a terrible mistake in incentivizing people to use homes as an investment. it should be difficult to evict someone from their home, and it should be risky and a pain in the ass to use someone else’s home as an investment.

i feel bad for _some_ of the landlords but from a larger societal perspective we’re going to look back at incentivizing so many people to invest as a landlord as a massive mistake.

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dfxm12
2 hours ago
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The landlord can divest themselves of the property. It's also ok if people lose money on investments. I don't think you have to feel especially bad for landlords.
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delichon
7 hours ago
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> We have to consider what the unintended consequences are of public policies or practices where there are no immediate consequences for someone who falls behind on rent

> Many [landlords] say they don’t actually intend to evict anyone, but that filing these cases is the most expedient way to get emergency rental aid from the city.

Economics in one easy lesson: incentives matter.

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vannevar
6 hours ago
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While that is certainly true, it's a very narrow view disconnected from the reasons for the policies. The most likely explanation for more people not paying their rent is that even fixed rents have become increasingly unaffordable because other costs have risen faster than wages. So yes, people are "choosing" not to pay rent because the consequences of not paying the rent lag substantially behind the consequences of not eating or buying gas. But it's an absolutely rational decision. FTA:

>...plenty of economic indicators suggest worsening financial duress for people already struggling. Costs are going up faster than wages, and inflation that took hold after the pandemic has proven painfully persistent.

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throwawayqqq11
6 hours ago
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>plenty of economic indicators suggest

> — and no one's sure why

Now that i saw the framing, i am looking differently on the discussion here. The smalles troublemakers are more news worthy than broad economic factors behind us all, so you dumb down your headline...

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_DeadFred_
4 hours ago
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All slack has been removed from society. All pricing has been maximized. Every interaction capitalized. Every point of extraction extracted from.

People living in these situations now live from crisis to crisis. Not paying rent/dealing with the consequences is just another on the list. At some point people just become numb. Modern society at the peripherals is not sustainable. There will always be people in the peripherals, but society is now structured to require middle class type stability as the bottom baseline for an individual to survive.

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kbar13
3 hours ago
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and the middle class is being destroyed
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inigyou
1 hour ago
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Has been. You could've said that 10 years ago, but it's completely gone now. People you think are middle class are probably just upper lower class.
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anovikov
1 hour ago
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Why isn't it automated yet? You delay your rent and your door key stops working.

Also perhaps there should be a new field for startups (yes i'm aware of 'proptech' but there has to be more than that), that will collect dirt on tenants to threaten them with legal consequences unless they pay.

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inigyou
59 minutes ago
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Good idea. Also a robot drone should come and sell your stuff on eBay.
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ares623
20 minutes ago
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Every day I doubt why I even bother reading this site. Then anovikov reminds me why. It's so I can keep on top of the creativity/depravity my fellow engineers are capable of.
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eli_gottlieb
32 minutes ago
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> Why isn't it automated yet? You delay your rent and your door key stops working.

1) Because screw you, that's horrible and you shouldn't do it.

2) Because all these digital key systems are horrendously insecure and much more open to thieves and crackers than than a plain old door key anyway.

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anovikov
14 minutes ago
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(1) - what's horrible? renting out flats is a business. not paying the bills shouldn't be tolerated, ideally shouldn't be technically possible.

(2) is negated very simply - have both old door key AND digital security key which auto closes if there are unpaid bills for say more than 5 business days.

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jquery
1 hour ago
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> Why isn't it automated yet? You delay your rent and your door key stops working.

Cyberpunk: Edgerunners has an excellent scene where something like this happens to a kid down on his luck.

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djeastm
7 hours ago
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It sounds like an ad-hoc rent strike. Not a great sign for an economy.
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inigyou
59 minutes ago
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If history teaches anything, it's that people are so afraid of striking they only ever do it when the alternative is death.
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gacgacgac
6 hours ago
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People can't afford to live and food comes before paying your landlord? Economy is fucked right now. Income inequality pushes any gains into the hands of the wealthy.

And frankly, more and more people are willing to stuff their landlord if they feel their landlord isn't holding up their end of the deal.

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