Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech
162 points
1 hour ago
| 18 comments
| nonogra.ph
| HN
onion2k
51 minutes ago
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If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spotting causal links between parts of a system, and people who are good at it exploit that.
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roenxi
22 minutes ago
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In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opportunity to get things like speech controls or privacy violations through and the politicians mysteriously give up trying to roll it back no matter what the public pressure might be.

That being said, any expectation of thoughtfulness at all makes politics frustrating. Even basic things like why people keep making small random changes when most of these problems and solutions haven't changed in more than 2 millennia. And there is a pretty easy consensus to come to about what works. The repeated failures of authoritarianism to get to a good place are so consistent it is wild that people keep trying it.

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chii
12 minutes ago
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Stupid things like brexit was put to a vote, but really important things such as age verification and mass surveillance are never put to any vote.
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ElProlactin
42 minutes ago
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> If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin.

But why would we do that?

If we taught people how to think, they wouldn't sit their toddlers down in front an iPad for 8+ hours a day to entertain (read: keep them occupied and quiet) them with YouTube videos, sign them up for a Facebook account before they could wipe their own butts, etc.

The sad irony of this age verification thing is that if we had a decent society and parents with common sense, age verification wouldn't even be a topic.

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dozerly
36 minutes ago
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Parents with common sense comes from teaching children common sense. You have to fix the child education issue first, a lot of adults are too far gone to educate at this point.
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Synthetic7346
18 minutes ago
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How can you fix the child education problem without fixing the parent education? School is but a few hours a day, and kids spend more time with parents and learn from them. I was lucky that my parents liked to read and encouraged me to read, but my friends didn't have the same exposure that I did and never liked to read books.
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johnny22
19 minutes ago
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I don't get why you would start there. Their parents probably didn't have youtube or ipads and they and/or their parents are the ones pushing it.
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lyu07282
5 minutes ago
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Uhh imagine you know about countries other than the US that implement age verification. Like the UK, Brazil, Australia, France, Spain, Italy and dozens of other countries with vastly different educational systems. Then perhaps you could begin to understand the magnitude of your own ignorance of actual power and political ideology. Instead of embarrassingly trying to reason yourself a political education from first principle.

Uh dumb law I don't like. Cause people dumb. If people not dumb, no dumb law. Uhh I am very smart. "Systems thinking" oh fucking hell stfu

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RachelF
6 minutes ago
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Age verification is just one part of this crackdown.

Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

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iamflimflam1
9 minutes ago
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This is already happening if you want to visit the US. Customs officers will look at your social media accounts to make sure you are compliant.
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firefoxd
1 hour ago
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It gives a new spin to:

> Everything you say CAN and WILL be used against you.

Especially when what you said has already been recorded and tied to your identity before you faced the authorities.

Edit: from last week https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48632269

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zarzavat
41 minutes ago
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I don't like age verification. However I'm not concerned about it.

The internet needs new spaces that are more decentralized and less in bed with governments.

We already lost our freedom when we agreed to move from IRC to Discord, from phpBB to Reddit, etc.

The teenagers who are blocked from mainstream social media will deliver us new free online spaces that are better than what they're blocked from.

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pibaker
25 minutes ago
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What happens when federal agents kick down your front door because you ran a free range mom and pop BBS that did not comply with latest ID verification requirements?

Big companies will benefit the most from these regulations. It's just good ol regulatory capture. They will have the most resources to comply with the laws. They have a captive audience that will be more willing to give up their personal info when asked — keep in mind Facebook and instagram is widely used for business. It is your small time forum admin who would rather shut down his hobbyist online community that never made him any money anyway than to ask for IDs. We have already seen stories of websites shutting down due to existing UK regulations. Curiously, all small, personal operations, not the kind of corporate social media they tell you the laws are meant to target.

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zarzavat
7 minutes ago
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It seems unlikely that running a website without age verification will be illegal across the entire planet.
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watwut
8 minutes ago
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I mean, social networks already made genocide happen. They they were instrumental in the curren winning march of fascism - in USA, in EU in Asia.
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rockskon
25 minutes ago
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Such spaces will never scale if there's widespread legal prohibitions.

It is foolish to assume we can innovate our way around the law as opposed to talking with lawmakers to oppose the law before it gets on the books.

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kjshsh123
10 minutes ago
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That sounds like mistaken optimism due to a mistaken interpretation of the invisible hand.

Mandating age verification and the inevitable implementation requirements are bad for freedom.

Behaviour changes and innovations will mitigate some of the negatives, but bad things are bad.

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Gigachad
28 minutes ago
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What we need is more personal spaces. Less feeds, more small group chats with people you actually know. I'm totally fine with destroying Reddit/Twitter/etc
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gigel82
11 minutes ago
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You do realize the next step is ISP-level tagging of traffic? And VPNs are already being outlawed in much of the western world.

Unless you expect the teenagers to run underground mesh radio networks and risk FCC's hammer (real jailtime), it's just wishful thinking.

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btbuildem
15 minutes ago
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This is a reminder to curate and prune all your past social media contribution, because when this goes thru, you KNOW they will apply it retroactively. You'd loathe to lose your cushy job over a moment of lucid honesty back in 2011.
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sixsupersoup
52 minutes ago
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Automated fines, like traffic radar control for free speech, will also become a norm as they won't be able to put everyone in jail. But I'm not sure the liberal anarcho-tyranny power will be indefinitely immutable. Speech control might be one their last try to keep control in the west. They will crumble like soviet union.
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quotemstr
5 minutes ago
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It doesn't have to be, FWIW. We have all the technology we need to decouple attribution from identity. We can achieve efficient and mathematically perfect unlinkability.

Yet the powerful continue to insist on "papers, please" anonymity-rending personal authentication over anonymous authorization. It's not often that the villains of history so clearly identify themselves.

My bunch is that the people driving this stuff were unaware that age verification could be privacy-preserving and can't exactly back down now.

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wuyuan
53 minutes ago
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You're right. Many countries use the protection of minors as an excuse, but in reality, they just want to strengthen the regulation of speech.
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initramfs
42 minutes ago
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"The Carnival in Venice was first documented in 1296, with a proclamation by the Venetian Senate announcing a public festival the day before the start of Lent. Unquestionably one of the most well-known Carnival festivities in the world, the Carnival of Venice is rife with mystery, adventure, and conspiracy. The day served to break down barriers between people of different economic standings and religious beliefs. During the Renaissance, masked comic performers performed in Venice's piazzas."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival_in_Italy#Venice

"The tradition of wearing masks seems to stem from the 13th century. During the ages the Venetians disguised themselves with mask whenever they thought necessary. It allowed them to escape from the rigid rules of the class hierarchy. All classes could mingle, men could be women, women could be men. It also led to unwanted behaviour, from throwing eggs filled with ink to all imaginable kinds of vulgarities. Masks made people unrecognisable, so they could not be prosecuted.

Near the end of the Republic, the right to wear masks in daily life was severely restricted. By the 18th century, it was limited to three months starting at December 26 and ending on the last day of Carnival, Shrove Tuesday. Masks were also used in ceremonies, eg. when ambassadors arrived and at the five ritual grand banquets offered each year to Venetian dignitaries by the doge. This resembles the Masquerade Balls during Carnival nowadays. Venetian noblemen and noblewomen wore a costume called a bautta consisting of a white mask (volto), a tricorn hat (tricorno), a hood worn under the hat (zendale) and a tabarro, a loose-fitting cloak. There were subtle differences between noble and non-noble (cittadini or popolani), and the popolani were known to wear more colorful, fun masks to festivities like the bull runs."

https://www.carnival-in-venice.eu/venetian-carnival-masks.ht...

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LandenLove
45 minutes ago
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My theory is that age verification is just another way to push human verification. These large tech companies need a way to verify a user is a real person and not an AI bot. Both for displaying ads to real users and cutting down on spam.

Nobody would support a "give away my anonymity online so I can be shown an ad for Coca Cola" bill. But it's easier to sell a law to boomers and lawmakers if you use the disguise of "It's for the children ." As if any of these companies care about the well being of children. See Meta confirming their platforms affect the mental health of children and doing nothing about it. Also platforms like TikTok and YouTube optimizing their algorithms for stealing user's attention spans.

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try-working
27 minutes ago
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many platform companies probably do not want to verify that a user is real, except in certain niche cases, as bots help them pump their numbers.
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triceratops
55 minutes ago
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"Don't let them win. Don't verify your age. Don't give up your identity. If you absolutely must, find one of the numerous age verification services and pay in Monero."

Better yet, how about - "call your representatives"?

Some nerds, for lack of a better term, think crypto and cryptography are the answers to every privacy problem. The only way to fix society and the law is by engaging with those things. Not sidestepping them with cryptography, an unscalable approach in any case.

I'm deeply pessimistic about the future. The only group competent enough to oppose identity verification has its head in the sand.

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rockskon
23 minutes ago
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Law alone cannot fix it. Tech alone cannot fix it.

If we wish to preserve the values we grew up with, we need both.

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dopidopHN2
48 minutes ago
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Have you been to a city council meeting lately ? Ever?

I'm trying to push for surveillance regulation where I live. I'm there monthly.

Calling your representative is the best way to realise that they don't give a fuck. Yesterday I was editing a clip of one of them lying overtly. It will be a minor inconveniences.

what we call democracy is a dog and ponies show.

So maybe cryptography is not that ridiculous, after all

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rockskon
16 minutes ago
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Not every lawmaker is the same and there's more than one way to get a lawmaker's attention.

Get more people with you. Or convince a group that's previously established trust in your jurisdiction to join you in speaking out. Or find out what causes the policymakers do care about and think of a compelling way to frame arguments against age verification in those terms. Heck - if you can get a local government agency to officially back you up, all the better.

There's more to politics than just going to town hall meetings or sending emails or making phone calls!

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triceratops
45 minutes ago
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> Calling your representative is the best way to realise that they don't give a fuck

That just means not enough people did it.

> So maybe cryptography is not that ridiculous, after all

Until they make that illegal. What'll you do then?

It. Doesn't. Scale.

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OutOfHere
25 minutes ago
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We do need a decentralized scalable permissionless platform for speech. For it to remain sustainable, there should be a slight cost in Monero to making each post on it, preloadable in batches.
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BenFranklin100
42 minutes ago
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Calls to mind a quote attributed to Cardinal Richelieu, 16th century Secretary of State for France:

‘If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him”

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thomastjeffery
51 minutes ago
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That, and it defines children as perpetrators instead of victims. What right could a citizen ever claim in a world where even children are guilty?

There is a huge difference between protecting children and prosecuting/punishing children. Age verification can only be an implementation of the latter.

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jauntywundrkind
57 minutes ago
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Look at W Social. The governments will team up with anyone, no matter how shady, as long as they promise to try to restrict free, unattributed speech. They'll team up with absolute sharks, as long as those sharks are gonna help sack and battle the Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48584497
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bluegatty
49 minutes ago
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The author made an assertive statement without any hint of rhetoric, reasoning, historical parallel, evidence, legislative example etc.
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derektank
56 minutes ago
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Disliking data centers, illegal immigration, or taxes is not a crime in the United States, nor is posting inconvenient messages about politicians, nor is getting a little too rowdy in a group chat. And none of these things are likely to be made illegal any time soon.

I always find this form of argument in favor of privacy (which is valuable in its own right to be clear) so roundabout. If you’re concerned about the government impinging on your freedom of speech, then why not write an essay arguing for expansive freedom of speech protections? That seems like a much more direct solution to the problem presented in this essay.

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arkhiver
53 minutes ago
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derektank
40 minutes ago
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I’m not exactly sure how an abuse of power occurring at a public event relates to the question of privacy or freedom of speech. The law did not allow the officer to arrest the man for the content of his speech so he retaliated by enforcing a different law unjustly. This kind of selective enforcement of the law can be a violation of federal law and the man likely has standing to sue.
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derektank
10 minutes ago
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For reference, a similar case of selective enforcement against an outspoken critic of the local government in Texas resulted in the critic receiving a settlement of $500k following an unjust arrest

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2025/10/15/i-feel-like-i-can...

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