Europe's company websites are mostly served by US vendors
59 points
57 minutes ago
| 15 comments
| ciphercue.com
| HN
LucaSiviero
10 minutes ago
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As an Italian solo-founder, I have to admit that the US vendor dependency is really strong, but when you look at what you need to build a serious product, what can you actually use from European vendors that is even close to US products?

Take Stripe as an example: is there a real alternative that covers what they do? Not to talk about Cloud and Edge Computing vendors: GCP, AWS, Cloudflare... does anyone even get close to these products / companies and what they offer? Managed environments, automatic scaling, serverless architectures that just work and cover all your needs?

I'm a big fan of Hetzner, which has great prices, a great managed environment and lot of features that give you a reliable structure to work on, but I don't actually want to manage everything by myself.

I also use Bunny.net for my products, but the services are still limited and contained to very specific stuff.

Just take a look at Neon Postgres as an example: where do you find a product like this in Europe?

I believe that the problem is mainly structural and cultural. When a new technology comes out, it's usually from US researchers and companies. So how does Europe even stand a (real) chance at giving the world (or the continent) the best packaged services?

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karambahh
6 minutes ago
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Funilly enough, payment might be the area where it's the easiest to find a credible european alternative. Adyen is an enormous PSP Mollie is aiming at smaller companies.

Scaleway, OVH, Hetzner, Infomaniak and others do have pre-packaged, managed services, but you might not find "eveything and anything" that you find at, say, AWS. The other side of the same coin is that you're as vendor-locked if you buid something with one component at SCW, one at Hetzner and the third at Infomaniak... (but you have to manage 3 different invoices...)

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embedding-shape
8 minutes ago
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> is there a real alternative that covers what they do?

Have you tried searching the internet for things like "European Stripe alternatives" and things like that? Or you tend to rely on word of mouth and similar?

I won't claim there are 100% replacements available for everything, but for all the basic functionality of Stripe, Cloudflare, AWS and so on there are tons of options out there, seemingly growing every month, but it does require you to proactively go out and look for them, rather than relying on that you've heard about it since before.

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LucaSiviero
1 minute ago
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I get your point, and even in Italy we have Banca Sella (first one that comes to mind) which is a great way to collect payments with a local processor. But it's not Stripe...

Stripe is not just an integration for Link or Card payments, and payment fees are actually not that bad. Developer experience matters most to me. Plus, I agree there are alternatives to a basic Stripe implementation, but what about Stripe Connect?

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Scroll_Swe
4 minutes ago
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It's not that they cannot be found.

But are they as good and is one willing to take the risk of putting your business one a smaller company vs one of the big ones?

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embedding-shape
59 seconds ago
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[delayed]
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hsuduebc2
58 seconds ago
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Out of curiosity. There aren't any payment card processors other than Stripe? I thought I saw bunch of them.
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anonzzzies
7 minutes ago
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Stripe is stupidly expensive ; I have Mollie and Ingenico with tailored deals which make Stripe seems like the dumbest thing you can do. I don't know what their defaults are, but I tried to reason with Stripe and they said i'm too small; no problem with these two. And I can drive to their HQ and ask what's up if anything is up, which I would prefer even at higher fees.
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embedding-shape
3 minutes ago
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Stripe, AWS and many of the "defaults" people use are extremely expensive, but since it's mostly VC-funded startups who foots the bills, no one seem to care. But once you're doing bootstrapped/long-lived stuff, you need to start caring, and once you see the terms and prices of other things, you start to realize how ridiculously over-priced AWS, Stripe, et al actually are.
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AznHisoka
2 minutes ago
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I did a similar study but analyzing actual API subdomains, and ignoring those fronted by Cloudflare, Akamai, etc and the conclusion was the opposite: European companied are more likely to be using OVH and Hetzner than AWS/Azure

https://bloomberry.com/blog/we-analyzed-50k-apis-heres-which...

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karambahh
15 minutes ago
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This tries to capture Europe as a single coherent market, which it is not and by far.

It's comparing countries with vastly different socio-economical landscapes and sizes.

Is "using Cloudflare as a CDN but hosting everything at, say, Hetzner using generic systems/opensource components" the same as "having built a complete ecosystem with Amazon specific software"?

Getting out of the walled garden of AWS, GCP or Azure is notoriously difficult. Some european cloud providers made this one of their key selling point, advocating for openess and "multicloud". This had, to my knowledge, next to no effect.

Vendor lockin is real. Dependency to a vendor located outside of your generic law system is, indeed, a risk. But this article probably isn't the way to measure it (and it's a tough job to do)

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embedding-shape
20 minutes ago
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> The practical point is not that every European company should leave US infrastructure tomorrow. The point is that sovereignty discussions often start too late in the stack. Before organisations debate cloud regions, subprocessors, or contractual controls, they should know which vendors already sit in front of their public web estate.

This seems like the wrong takeaway and I'd advice (European) companies to do the opposite: Don't look at what your marketing/landing page does first, care first about where your actual user/company data lives, what processors are touching it and so on. Then once you have your internal house in order, then do the easy surface-level stuff like what vendor sits in front of your marketing websites.

I don't understand why they'd advise people to do things in that suggested order, seems really backwards and like they're more interested in patching over the problem rather than actually solving it.

> For European infrastructure vendors, this is the market map. For policymakers, it is the base rate. For buyers, it is the inventory problem.

Dammit, fell for another AI slop article AGAIN...

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rrr_oh_man
17 minutes ago
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> Dammit, fell for another AI slop article AGAIN...

Yes, it's INFURIATING. I hate, hate, hate this. :(

Can we start flagging shit like this, please?

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neya
9 minutes ago
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> Dammit, fell for another AI slop article AGAIN...

Is it really "slop" if you keep falling for AI written articles again and again? Doesn't that actually mean the opposite - the AI seemingly convinced you (or almost) that it was written by a realy human?

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embedding-shape
5 minutes ago
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Yes, because it sounds reasonable at the beginning, then the further you go, the less sense it makes. Ultimately you look up the stuff that felt weird initially, and found the reason why it sounded so weird.

If I never actually noticed it, it wouldn't be slop, that I'd agree with. But in this case, I did notice, so it is slop.

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Aissen
21 minutes ago
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Good article because it clearly exposes the methodology and the shortcomings of the measurements (mostly the front CDN of a ~20k number of old continent entities of apex/www domain).
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rukshn
29 minutes ago
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I find the Europe's relationship with tech to be wired, there is one section that is hardcore-opensource fanatics, they want to host everything by themselves, and want to go through the trouble of keeping things updated, and would not want to use a close source tools even though they are developed by European counterparts.

On the other side there are people who are techy but happy to use US products, and when you pitch something European they would cite some tool that's better and bigger in US.

It's hard to find people who are in the middle who would like to pay and use a EU made tool.

Also processes take forever, and everything has to go through lot of meetings, and bureaucracy and red-tape and no one is willing to take a chance on a small startup.

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graemep
3 minutes ago
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You switch from talking about Europe to talking about the EU half way through. The article was about Europe (excluding Russia and a few others).

> there is one section that is hardcore-opensource fanatics, they want to host everything by themselves, and want to go through the trouble of keeping things updated

Using Cloudflare, AWS etc. does not mean you do not have to keep things updated. Using an SaaS does. The numbers in the article count both.

There are plenty of people who use FOSS only and non-US hosting, and still use Cloudflare.

> On the other side there are people who are techy but happy to use US products, and when you pitch something European they would cite some tool that's better and bigger in US.

A preference for what they already know (maybe reinforced by marketing). Its not that they prefer American products, but American dominance means it is what everyone already knows.

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cube2222
20 minutes ago
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I think the reason for this is that if you're targeting folks for whom Europe-sovereignty resonates as an important factor, those will also care about sovereignty and self-sufficiency in general, and thus just skip your SaaS and go right for (semi) self-hosting.

While for the other side where the sovereignty is not an important factor, it's product quality that matters.

You can absolutely make a European startup that sells B2B SaaS, successfully, it just has to be better than the competition, and being European will not be enough.

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Pragmata
18 minutes ago
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Why would i want an inferior option just because it's made in the EU? I'm not an EU nationalist, i don't care if "EU Tech Companies" are a thing. If anything "EU Tech Sovereignty" is a net negative for me.
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palata
13 minutes ago
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> If anything "EU Tech Sovereignty" is a net negative for me.

Is it? If you live in the EU, the fact that pretty much all companies completely depend on US tech to work means that the US can not only spy on them (if Airbus uses Microsoft Teams, then the US government can ask Microsoft to give them access to the data and use that to help Boeing win contracts for instance), but also put pressure on those companies by blocking their access to that tech (it has happened).

The "sovereignty" part here is a net positive for anyone living in the EU. Net negative for anyone living in the US of course, because being in a dominant position does favour the US.

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embedding-shape
17 minutes ago
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If the location of something is a part of what you use to decide what to use, then if it's in the EU which is your preferred location, it no longer is "an inferior option", it might end up your only option.

But clearly you don't care, so understandably that choice doesn't make sense for you, that's all fine and good. But still you have to understand other people/organizations than you might have different requirements? Or is that a very foreign concept?

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palata
8 minutes ago
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> I find the Europe's relationship with tech to be wired

I don't think it's weird: almost nobody cares, they just use whatever they know/is free. It turns out it is US tech. It's the exact same situation in the US, except that for them it is not a sovereignty issue.

Now maybe there is a bigger open source community in Europe, but I don't see a problem with that.

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shellwizard
20 minutes ago
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There are not many big vendors that are EU first apart from SAP, SuSE and a handful more. Nothing similar to what MS, IBM, Google, Intel, AMD , Nvidia or Meta provide.
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palata
11 minutes ago
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> Nothing similar to what MS, IBM, Google, Intel, AMD , Nvidia or Meta provide.

That's a bit of a feature, I don't think the EU should want TooBigTech monopolies. Doesn't mean that there cannot be successful services in Europe.

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21asdffdsa12
6 minutes ago
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Its. You know. Look around. What our elites and noble families concot. Wirecard. etc.
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gaurana
21 minutes ago
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> It's hard to find people who are in the middle who would like to pay and use a EU made tool.

I think that’s because people who aren’t part of the open source FOSS camp don’t care where the services they use are based. And the people who don’t care tend to choose whatever is the easiest and most popular option. Hold on, did I just restate your whole point? Maybe I did.

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herbst
24 minutes ago
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So only in 2 smaller countries the "majority" is US served? That's what I read in that graphic
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vb-8448
24 minutes ago
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Wait to see what they are using for emails and for most of their internal docs (containing any kind of secrets)!

I know companies that will tell you "I'm not gonna put any of my data in cloud, especially not American ones" but they are perfectly fine using any major cloud based office suite (mail, docs, chat/video apps, ecc ecc) where they voluntarily and deliberately load any kind of data.

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21asdffdsa12
9 minutes ago
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Europe has reduced itself to a backwater. Surrounded by hostiles
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collinmcnulty
15 minutes ago
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As ever, there's a relevant xkcd

https://xkcd.com/932/

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rmoriz
25 minutes ago
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Mail (SMTP) is even worse.
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sam_lowry_
8 minutes ago
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See https://mxmap.be/ and follow the links for other countries.

Self-hosting mail infra is a forgotten skill, indeed

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embedding-shape
18 minutes ago
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Here in Spain it seems better. We don't have tons of alternatives for web services, so lots end up on the typical clouds, but email hosting it seems every region has at least one ajuntament that runs their very own email servers. Helps that the country politically and socially is a bit decentralized since the beginning of the republic, but I was (pleasantly) surprised how many local governments here actually manage their own emails.
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imp0cat
20 minutes ago
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There was a post here on hn that showcased EU tech map which you can use to check for alternatives, ie for Gmail https://europeantechmap.eu/alternative-to/gmail?pricing=free...

There aren't many completely european solutions, but there are more than zero.

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rrr_oh_man
17 minutes ago
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AI slop be AI sloppin'.
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Alien1Being
13 minutes ago
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AI slop

Right on the front page...

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Scroll_Swe
5 minutes ago
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Let me repost another comment of mine.

TLDR: Yes, ofc we use Microsoft, Amazon (AWS), Cloudflare and Cisco...

There is even mainstream press articles about it here in Sweden. "dependance on microsoft ooh so bad" etc.

I find it laughable.

Unless you have a time machine to 2005 (EC2 came out in 2006 that should have been the signal) there is no way to compete now. That train has left the platform.

Second, Nokia and Ericsson dominate mobile infra in the west, but that is good I guess as they are EU? What does USA think about that?

Third, let us say you get rid of MS. Now you have no MS but all network infra for broadband is Cisco, Huawei, Juniper etc. Good luck ripping that out. And for what?

Same with AI. Mistral was amazing at first, Le Chat. Almost as good, generous free limits, good docs. Now? Just plain bad. Deepseek is better (I dislike china so I avoid it). EU should have gone in 500% the moment Mistral showed promise.

But lately we let USA and China take the lead on everything and EU can write a strongly worded letter after about how bad it is.

People will "care" when EU starts making good stuff again.

And lastly lol, people do know everything ends in Taiwan in the end right?

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