▲It's unclear whether this junk fee law will have teeth. In theory, California has the same anti-drip pricing law, but restaurants have a specific carve out [1] which is bullshit because the drip pricing that most people complain about is the X% "service charges" and "lifestyle fees" that restaurants have at the bottom of their menu in small print.
From what I can tell online, NYC rules won't have this carveout, but I haven't eaten there recently so I can't confirm.
[1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
Fees on one time services are not what this is targeting. This legislation is not meant to address that, and wouldn't apply to that.
They are going after recurring billing (that's what the headline means by "subscription"). It mentions things like gyms, online subscriptions etc.
It would be pretty wild if they had managed to get service fees at restaurants when they were not at all targeting service fees, restaurants or one time in person purchases.
From TFA:
> Rule from Mamdani administration ... targets ‘junk fees’
> The city is also targeting so-called “junk fees” that raise the final price of everything from apartments to sporting events, with a proposed rule that requires sellers to “advertise the total price for any good or service, including all mandatory additional charges and fees, up front”, according to a release shared with the Guardian.
> proposed rule that requires sellers to “advertise the total price for any good or service, including all mandatory additional charges and fees, up front”
This is going to be tough to enact, anywhere in the USA, even New York. There is nothing quite as American as "not knowing what you're going to pay for something until you have to pay." Whether it's your doctor bill, restaurant bill with tips and service fees, your hotel stay with a hidden resort fee, or just general purchases where tax is computed at the very end right before you pay... We are culturally so used to this abuse.
You may find some bits of culture are easier to change than others and I wager this one falls squarely in the ‘surprisingly easy’ category.
reply▲FTC has mandated all-in pricing for hotels since last year.
reply▲I mean culturally we're used to it, but it seems really easy to test for and therefore fine businesses doing it in NYC? Just go ring up some purchase and see if they add a tax onto the listed price, and if they do report it.
reply▲Agreed, this is totally solvable. You could even set up an email address for people to send pictures of their receipts to so they know who to investigate. Imagine if you could just screenshot a bill and send it to "junkfees@nyc.gov" and then they'd assign someone to look into it!
reply▲The latest one for me is renting a new apartment, getting told it cost $XXXX a month, then being told I'm required to have $XXXXXX amount of renter's insurance at $XXX a month and oh, by the way, click here to use ours.
reply▲A requirement to obtain renter’s insurance is not an example of the type of fees this legislation is targeting.
reply▲SoftTalker59 minutes ago
[-] It should also be illegal. If I want to risk loss of my personal property that should be my decision to make.
reply▲It’s not your property they care about. They usually want this because it includes liability insurance if you damage their property or someone else’s, or your negligence causes harm to someone.
reply▲evolve2k14 minutes ago
[-] In Australia we have very strong consumer protection law, here it’s expected (by the bank usually) the landlord has at least a minimum “landlord insurance” that covers all that stuff.
For anything not covered, where a tenant does damage thats what the bond is for.
Renter insurance should be optional.
Actually I’m surprised that landlord insurance is not already occurring, imagine a building with 100 apartments, I’m sure the bank would ask the landlord to have a single cover over 100’s of little crappy policies.
If renter insurance is required by regulations, this is likley another good target for policy change.
Americans really do get screwed in so many ways.
SoftTalker9 minutes ago
[-] Same here. This has only been a thing recently when landlords figured out they could make money selling the insurance. When I was a renter, insurance was never required from me.
reply▲The insurance requirement isn’t uncommon where I am (California). Though I would avoid whatever plan they are pushing. I got mine through my existing insurance provider and it worked out to ~$15 per month IIRC.
reply▲Renter’s insurance is not a fee.
reply▲wewtyflakes41 minutes ago
[-] The fact that Scott Wiener made that carve out for restaurants via emergency legislation (SB 1524) made my blood boil and I vowed to vote against him in any election is runs in.
reply▲At least in CA they need to disclose them now. Previously some restaurants would just hit you with a surprise mandatory tip.
reply▲Usually by the time people are seated and you read the fine print on the back of the menu, inertia has taken over.
reply▲Some people say they use the fine print as a reminder to cut back on the tips proportionally.
reply▲> which is bullshit because the drip pricing that most people complain about is the X% "service charges" and "lifestyle fees" that restaurants have at the bottom of their menu in small print.
I don't think I go to the same restaurants as everyone else.
I tried searching for what a "lifestyle fee" is and all I could find is references to "living wage fee" which is essentially a forced tip added to the bill.
A service charge for large groups though is understandable as they typically will require much more attention and work from waitstaff than the typical small dining party.
TulliusCicero1 hour ago
[-] I'm somewhat skeptical that they actually require more attention per person. Does an 8-person group require more than 2x as much attention as a 4-person group?
reply▲Large groups are also the most notorious non-tippers.
reply▲It's unfortunately somewhat common these days and personally I actively avoid any place which does this. At least it's only somewhat common rather than the standard so it's still possible. Couple of examples:
https://sushiconfidential.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/sc_... "3.5% Living Wage Surcharge added to each bill which allows us to provide the service you have always enjoyed!"
https://www.pacificcatch.com/menu/ "NorCal - A 3% surcharge (5% in San Francisco) will be added to all Guest checks to help offset the rising cost of wages and benefits. This is not gratuity."
Because increasing prices by that percentage is too hard?
reply▲They're trying their best to make it seem that government policies and regulation compliance costs are responsible, hence the names of these charges.
reply▲Yea, it's basically restaurant owners trying to get their customers involved in their political whining.
Notice how you never see things like "Business License Fee" or "Restaurant Electricity Bill Surcharge" listed out as separate line items on customers' bills. Those are things restaurant owners have to pay, too, so why don't they get their own charges to customers? Why does only "Living Wage" get a line item on the customer's bill?
> Electricity Bill Surcharge
"Fuel surcharge" on flights. Which should be illegal: the cost of hedging fuel cost risk should be included in any ticket price.
A friend said that Uber was charging a fuel surcharge here in New Zealand, but that it wasn't passed on to the driver (who pays for the fuel). If true I would find that interesting.
> A friend said that Uber was charging a fuel surcharge here in New Zealand, but that it wasn't passed on to the driver
I did a bit of a dive on this and I think it’s not correct.
I have a low threshold for hating them, after the reports of how females staffers were treated a few years back, but this new thing seems to be untrue.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128042303/uber-introduces-f...
The elephant in the room would be an ‘employee salary surcharge’
reply▲Hey now, let's not get carried away, these jackass restaurant owners want to make it clear, the "Living Wage" guilt trip is the tip part, and the fees THEY put on are to pay for "benefits like healthcare" and you're not allowed to consider it part of the tip.
Nevermind that California doesn't even have a lower "tipped" min wage like some states do, so by supporting tipping, we're just saying that servers simply "deserve" more money for some reason than people who stock shelves or pick orders at Amazon or Walmart.
expedition323 hours ago
[-] If it is hard to find staff the wages go up. At least that's how it works in my country.
Although I will admit service is notoriously bad over here but in honesty that's secretly how we all want it.
If you want to claim "we have the lowest prices in town" in advertising, you can't increase the "price".
reply▲quickthrowman3 hours ago
[-] They need to price it in to the menu.
I run Union electrical jobs and I don’t list out every fringe benefit they receive on an itemized invoice. It’s $163/hr with everything baked in.
If restaurants want to pay a living wage, charge more money for food.
Check who Mamdani's friends are to find the likely carveouts - just like Newsom's Panera Carve-Out on our minimum wage law.
reply▲These rules are great but “landmark” seems like puffery, as California has had such rules for quite a while.
Ironically that has meant it’s hard to unsubscribe from the New York Times except in California.
aczerepinski4 hours ago
[-] I once wrote code that checks location before hiding/showing the cancel button. It’s really absurd that the nice experience exists on all subscription sites by now but you only get to see it if your state demands it.
reply▲I have no context of who you are/your position here, but the responses you're getting seem absurd to me.
I just don't understand people placing the blame on you when it should be on your company. Most people in the world are just trying to keep their job - you did it. It wasn't something illegal, it was something that if you didn't do, you would have risked your job and then someone else would have done it anyway.
59percentmore3 hours ago
[-] Because the difference between what he's done and, say, the practice of the people who peddled opioids for a paycheck is one of degree, not kind.
reply▲Obviously the difference of degree on the spectrum between the two in this case does vary greatly, but your comment reminded me of an interview with a journalist who had compiled a collection of interviews with midtier drug dealers in various cartels and one thing that stood out to him was that almost all of them, when asked why they did what they did, would respond by saying that if they didn't someone else would.
reply▲SecretDreams2 hours ago
[-] Yeah, but it's multiple orders of magnitude apart.
Are we also going to start putting LLM engineers to the fire because they're accelerating the enshitification of our world? Probably not.
That’s not a good example, since you can argue that LLMs have utility to humanity. Hiding the cancel button has none, except for rent seeking.
reply▲The bigger difference is that the net utility for LLMs could turn out to be massively negative
reply▲forgetfreeman3 hours ago
[-] "I was just following orders" is not, and has never been, a credible defense of unethical behavior.
reply▲Exactly. Those low quality comments are an example of the sad erosion of quality of comments on HN that I and others have complained about in recent times.
reply▲ToucanLoucan3 hours ago
[-] It's perfectly valid in our increasingly enshittified world to be angry with
all those responsible for it. As much as you're right to point the finger a the C-suites, ultimately ALL of these user-hostile features, every single one, only exists because devs keep putting fingers to keyboards in exchange for checks.
Tech workers had a time where unionization and getting a voice in our companies was very much on the table, and the biggest voices among us shouted down the others in the name of rockstar salaries and free beer at the office. The "top contributors" at huge companies were scared shitless that they might have to accept a wage too much like the REST of their software engineer coworkers. The horror.
blackqueeriroh21 minutes ago
[-] This is a deeply ignorant comment. Do you understand how much money you have to have IN SAVINGS in order to be able to weather even a moderately short hospital stay in the United States when you’re uninsured?
reply▲Same with websites like Airbnb. Last I checked, their search results only showed the 'real' prices (eg including fees) for certain states and countries. In some states you have to click into the listing before learning that there's an extra $500 cleaning fee on top of the nightly rate :)
reply▲Congrats on using your education to make the world a worse place
reply▲I don’t like it either but blame goes to the top of the org chart. That’s not illegal or, by the standards of the field, flagrantly unethical so it’s a bit extreme to expect someone to resign over.
reply▲Blame goes to everyone involved. From the decision makers to the implementors
reply▲Mostly lack of competition and anti-trust regulation. Who would use a worse service when a healthy alternative exists?
reply▲You were just following orders, that's a great argument
reply▲Keep thinking about the parallel you’re drawing and you might hit the difference: that phrase gained notoriety in the Nuremberg trials for murder but somehow we do not give the same weight to, say, a pushy salesman or a debt collector or a government employee enforcing strict means testing laws. Is it possible that our moral sense can account for things being less severe than murder and draw a distinction between actual Nazis and people doing what they can to survive in an unforgiving country with few supports?
reply▲I don’t know what standards you are referring to, but yea I would call it flagrantly unethical for sure.
reply▲Why would you do something so immoral?
reply▲To get paid, obviously. We're all self interested actors here.
reply▲Same reason people lobby for fracking or sell mass surveillance software.
reply▲You should ask that question to the workers at palantir
reply▲How does it feel to be at the epicentre of arseholery?
Genuine question. Not sure how I'd feel.
mschuster913 hours ago
[-] At the end, someone will be there desperate enough to follow the boss's whim. Always.
That is why regulation is so important.
We need regulation, yes, but also people who have a sense of goodness. We can’t legislate every aspect of a respectable society.
reply▲blackqueeriroh20 minutes ago
[-] You’d be surprised.
Also, people’s sense of goodness doesn’t pay rent or ensure food is on the table.
I think you, as the reader, are expected to mentally append “in NYC” when a link comes from nyc.gov. It seems very silly for a given municipality to need to qualify every sentence on its own website.
reply▲henryfjordan3 hours ago
[-] The municipality is already qualifying the sentence! Instead of "NYC announces click-to-cancel law" they qualify it with "landmark".
I think it's silly for a municipality to lie (by omission?) in their own press announcements.
It’s a landmark change
in NYC.
Again: this is NYC’s official website. It might (as a stretch) be a “lie by omission” on a national newspaper’s website, but this is a website that is solely dedicated to NYC itself.
henryfjordan3 hours ago
[-] Now I'm being super pedantic, but every town can't have the same "landmark" law. What makes a law a "landmark" is that other municipalities look to it for direction.
In a world where the California law exists, and the New York Times has been used as an example of the success of that law for years already, claiming some sort of moral victory with the "landmark" qualifier is objectively wrong.
Does any of this matter? No, but I like arguing about it.
If you want to be pedantic, NYC is a different “land” to have a “landmark” for :-)
(I like arguing too. Nothing wrong with that. I think in this case it suffices that they’re regulations in different states with relatively different political histories, even if the political valence of the two is somewhat similar. I would agree if this was a “landmark” change for Irvine, CA.)
The ironic thing to me is that Mamdani is only the
mayor of NYC. He is not the governor of NY state. So if you live in Buffalo, you will still have to suffer through shenanigans?
Edit: I see others with similar thoughts from further down the scroll
It's just local NYC news. Thinks are landmark to them that are often commonplace elsewhere which makes sense since millions call that place home that are not acquainted with other places. It is truly America's one megacity so that sort of puffery is expected.
The advent of dumpsters was similarly hailed there, though almost no other cities in the US throw their trash on the sidewalk.
returningfory22 hours ago
[-] This information about the NYT is out of date; it's now easy to unsubscribe from anywhere.
reply▲I took the "first" bit out of the title above - thanks!
reply▲throwaway274483 hours ago
[-] Oh, is new york in california?
reply▲Generally when a seller in state X in the US sells to a buyer in a different state Y the consumer protection laws of state Y apply.
Even if the seller in X does not have a presence in Y, and so you might think Y has no jurisdiction, purposefully conducting business within a state is sufficient to allow Y to assert jurisdiction in regards to that business.
throwaway274483 hours ago
[-] > Generally when a seller in state X in the US sells to a buyer in a different state Y the consumer protection laws of state Y apply.
I've found the person who lives in California lol, no it does not work that way.
No, you've found the person who (1) remembers Civil Procedure from the first year of law school [0], particularly the case of International Shoe Co. v. Washington, 326 U.S. 310 (1945) [1], (2) did some checking to make sure that between then and now nothing significant has changed (it hasn't--International Shoe is still the foundational case in this area), (3) remembers several large non-California companies California has successfully enforced its consumer protection and privacy laws against and several non-Illinois companies Illinois has enforced its similar laws against.
"Minimum contacts" is a good term to include in searches if you want to learn more on this.
[0] Note: I am not a lawyer. Near the end of law school I decided I'd rather be a programmer with a decent knowledge of law than a lawyer with a decent knowledge of programming.
[1] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/326/310/
testfrequency2 hours ago
[-] The NYC propaganda is strong right now with Mamdani.
California still S-tier for protecting its land and people.
Outsiders need to append a "for NYC".
They didn't here because for them as representatives of NYC that's all they are speaking to.
Technical pedantry like this just displays poor language and social skills.
I wonder if the bit about 'junk fees' will include undisclosed hotel fees. I just stayed there last week in a no-frills "hotel" which doesn't include daily room cleaning, has no staff at night, and has no amenities whatsoever, and they charged me a surprise-at-check-in $35 a night resort fee. This fee was not described in the booking.
reply▲That hotel may have broken an FTC rule that's been in effect for about a year now.
> Effective May 12, 2025, the FTC’s Rule on Unfair or Deceptive Fees, 16 C.F.R. Part 464, prohibits bait-and-switch pricing and other tactics used to obscure and misrepresent total prices and fees for live-event tickets and short-term lodging.
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/rule-unfair-...
This is what legitimate government looks like. Leaders actually advocating for the people who are being deceived by those in power instead of helping those in power.
While this may be a trivial issue, being able to cancel a gym or newspaper subscription, it sends a signal. Companies need to view customers as partners in a business transaction and not objects to be exploited.
I have similar feelings.
I am sympathetic to a perspective that says this is not the responsibility of a mayor of a single city... But also; who else is going to do it?
Normal people have very little say over the politicians that govern them in larger electoral regions like states or provinces, and maybe this can signal to other levels of government that they should implement similar rules... If it works.
CFPB once played that role for financial services. Ah well.
reply▲>I am sympathetic to a perspective that says this is not the responsibility of a mayor of a single city... But also; who else is going to do it?
With a population of 8.5 million if NYC was a state it would be the 13th largest so I'm quite all right with the city going beyond the normal purview of a city government.
And if it were a country, it would be the 10th largest economy in the world and the 105th most populous
reply▲Mamdani has been doing great in NYC so far. The hope is that he will inspire similar behavior in others. And drive similar approaches to politics in other constituencies.
reply▲I'm actually struggling to believe he's done all this stuff. Like it's crazy to see it was possible to fix everything the whole time and all it took was slightly increasing taxes on billionaires and not being corrupt.
reply▲sillyfluke14 minutes ago
[-] Is there a website for New York City where people can petition for things like this?
If there's anybody from the mayor's office reading this, how about that all banks must provide their services at minimum on a browser through a web app and cannot mandate the use of a smartphone.
I'm all for it. Would be great to see exactly how all of his policies play out across a larger area.
reply▲nonethewiser1 hour ago
[-] >This is what legitimate government looks like.
Do you mean good government? Or well-functioning? Any government that is formed legally is legitimate.
> Leaders actually advocating for the people who are being deceived by those in power instead of helping those in power.
Who is deceiving who now? And I'm not sure who is in power here...
Funny this should come up today.
I just got a notice from my credit card company that Evernote just charged my credit card after 2 'successful' cancellations of my subscription each of the last 2 years, and the complete deletion of my account several months ago.
Hopefully these will become more widespread - I'm not in NY or CA.
yes, that is happening to me real-time, the article in the Economist reminded me (
https://www.economist.com/business/2026/07/01/can-bending-sp...), right down to Evernote being the one they are attempting to gouge me on at best and charge illegally at worst. so i had a closer look at bank and PayPal GLs
i found similar issues with Paddle (attempted to quit), Proton (double charged), Splashtop (attempted to quit), and Bloomberg via Apple (attempted to quit) and the common thread is PayPal. never Stripe.
my PayPal account is ancient (2002) and knowing what i know about payments (perhaps a little) i believe there is something akin to a hole regarding legacy pre-auth tokens in a PayPal architecture which is old enough to run for the US House. at least Bending Spoons would be willfully exploiting such a hole, because after i refunded / cancelled, 9 days later they were able to charge again. PayPal also seems to have an open marriage with PCI-DSS / SOC2
Sharks will keep eating easy prey until they hit an iron bar. I also hate this fact about the world by the way :) Just a [hardwon] observation.
reply▲People who forget to cancel are easy prey.
Cancelling then being charged anyway is something else. Something akin to being robbed IMHO.
There’s a reason they were used as a poster child of a bad actor when the FTC rule was made a few years ago, before the current administration shredded it.
reply▲A complimentary complaint is that payments are a "pull" operation with subscriptions. You can't decide who gets your money. How retro is that!
reply▲CSMastermind4 hours ago
[-] Is this something that cities can really enforce? Like I get that NYC is a bit of an exception but let's say a 5 person town in Wyoming decides that they want to make this practice illegal and they all vote to do so. It's not clear to me that would mean anything at all.
reply▲Your question answers exactly how enforceable it is. It’s directly linked to your population size and how much it can hurt the wallet of the company.
Edit: but also, who cares? Literally no solution to anything on earth works for EVERYONE
quickthrowman3 hours ago
[-] NYC has ~2% of the US population, and it’s a relatively wealthy slice compared to the mean. NYC has roughly 13x as many people as the entire state of Wyoming. I could see a company writing off Wyoming entirely (not likely, but possible) but not NYC.
States like CA, FL, NY, and TX can pass state laws that create defacto national regulations through sheer size, but smaller than that and you’ll have trouble.
CSMastermind2 hours ago
[-] Sure but say some company based in Lousiana has a website that violates NYC law.
What exactly will NYC do about it? Is there some mechanism to for them to block the website inside of NYC? The company would presumably have no property they could seize or employees they could imprison.
If it were a state passing the law then they could sue for enforcement in federal court but I don't think a city could?
Nintendo (subscription I have for my switch to access some older a classic games btw) is very good reminding me I have a subscription and whether I want to cancel (or renew). I don't have the email at hand but what I remember is thinking they really desire you to reflect to cancel (rather than a push to renew) if not wanting continued service. Sentiment of politeness and I find a good example what to do.
Also, not a subscription but seeing some dark practices after COVID onset at any fast-food like business (including cafes, juices, cupcakes, etc) where a preselected tip is selected. Default should be no.
I really appreciate companies that are transparent with renewals. I’m sure it cuts down on customer support load a lot too. Kagi goes as far as not billing you if you don’t use their service in the prior month. I was pretty shocked the first time I got that email. Made me a customer for life.
reply▲spiderfarmer4 hours ago
[-] Sadly, it's often just because they were forced by the EU and several other markets.
reply▲I think the card networks are responsible for forcing subscription reminders. Annual renewal and when a trial ends.
They don't like disputes so it's preemptive.
expedition323 hours ago
[-] Well yeah in a perfect world we would not need laws against greed and fraud but alas.
reply▲It goes
> Subject: Information about Your Automatic Renewal
> This is an automatically generated email from Nintendo for customers who have a Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack individual 12‑month (365‑day) membership set to renew automatically.
> Dear [user],
> Your Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack individual 12‑month (365‑day) membership will automatically renew soon.
> ...
> Deadline to turn off automatic renewal: [1 month from now]
It also does this right when you first sign up for automatic renewal except the deadline is [1 year from now].
littlecranky673 hours ago
[-] Because this is mandatory in the EU probably.
reply▲They know my US address. I have an American eShop account.
Why would EU rules apply?
Nintendo is just a decent company compared to most others.
Even if that were true, Nintendo is better than most companies, which will use deceptive practices wherever they are allowed, even if they have to pay to maintain multiple systems and configurations.
reply▲> where a preselected tip is selected. Default should be no.
A lot of this push to higher and higher and preselected tip options comes from POS software providers (Square et al) and credit card companies. They make money on transaction volume. Higher transaction -> more fees
The restaurants get to set those values though. A coffee shop near me puts the default options as $1, $2, $3 for low order totals. So if I go in and get a coffee (which is $4.50), the lowest tip option is 22% and the highest is a whopping 66%.
I've seriously gotten tip fatigue and have been working to move back to a sane standard. I've noticed the places that have these crazy tips, also pay their staff well.
Unless I’ve missed something, Nintendo seem to have really good business ethics.
reply▲I agree. I do wish they would use replaceable batteries outside the EU, where they are mandated, though.
reply▲GeForce NOW as well. Very straight forward and clear email every month.
reply▲Maybe their PMs haven't attended top MBA schools in the USA, yet
reply▲Just want to add to the pile that The New York Times is notorious for its unsubscription shenanigan
reply▲For what it's worth, I just tried cancelling my NYTimes subscription to see if it was still as bad as I'd remembered, and aside from desperately begging me not to leave, it was quite simple. No need to contact support. I wasn't planning to go through with it, but I still got a nice discount for the next year, so.. thanks!
reply▲jazzyjackson3 hours ago
[-] Anything Condé Nast too, which is pretty much everything. Nice office in the World Trade Center tho so they’ve got revenue figured out.
reply▲I remember trying to cancel NYT subscription a few years back and it was almost impossible. I didn't expect it from such a reputable establishment.
reply▲As someone who doesn’t live in the US, it was hilariously impossible: you had to call on the phone a number in New York, which never picked up, so you had to pay hours of internal call, or send a fax, something I hadn’t done in two decades…
Thankfully, I had a bank that used technology from this century, including a disposable credit card number. I stopped paying and that lead them to them calling me.
jonathanlydall2 hours ago
[-] This is where getting it via Apple’s App Store is nice for consumers.
I (a non-American) had a NYT subscription through the iOS app some years back and cancelling it (like any other subscription through the App Store) was as as simple as:
- Open Settings
- Tap my account
- Tap Subscriptions
- Tap the New York Times option (or whatever it’s called)
- Tap Cancel
While the gate keeper aspect of Apple may not be good in many ways, at least we get this kind of benefit from it.
I suppose right now there is no federal preemption - but I fully expect gym & similar lobbying at the federal level to get a rule in place to allow preemption challenges.
reply▲The irony with all this, is if a company makes it difficult to cancel their subscription, it's probably not a good product. Antidotically, I've found that making it easy for users to not only cancel, but refund, has given me eye opening things to fix in some products that made it so less people cancelled or refunded. So I try to always err on best user experience.
reply▲> Antidotically,
Anecdotally
The practice being discussed is poison, so it sort of works.
reply▲IncreasePosts3 hours ago
[-] NYT made it difficult, and they are a pretty good product. If you didn't live in california and wanted to cancel your subscription, you were required to talk to a service rep who would try to get you stay by giving you some free period before normal subscription billing resumed
reply▲I know of 4 NYT subscriptions that have not been made due to the difficulty in cancelling.
I’m sure they know the exact stats, and are getting more cash as a result of their BS.
Good site, trash business practices.
You are interested in providing something worth paying for. Other people are interested in maximizing ROI for ad spend.
reply▲How about banning the most deceptive practice that is advertising prices without taxes?
reply▲If taxes were uniform across geography (political boundaries) you could argue that, but as it is, taxes are not uniform.
reply▲The store is uniform across geography, in the sense that it doesn't move and a system within the store is capable of calculating the taxes. If there was a simple flat "10% sales tax" on every single item in a store, the store could simply print price tags with that included. Marketing materials posted in the store could have the advertised price slapped on a sticker by the store too.
The issue is really that taxes in most places are not uniform in application, not necessarily just because of geography, but also all of the specific carve outs and exceptions and so on that America tends to have, e.g., SNAP and WIC often don't pay sales tax. So its actually hard to know what someone is going to pay without communicating with them personally beforehand.
Probably a great decision, but why/how can it be decided at a local level by a mayor, instead of a federal level?
reply▲I don’t think it would be a federal concern, but a state one.
However, in this case it’s because NYC law is typically allowed under NY state law to be stronger (but not weaker) than any corresponding state law.
why: because the federal level is not doing it
how: by declaring it a law in that area
readthenotes13 hours ago
[-] And yet an executive action is not a law. It's a dictate.
Course, one should never underestimate the value of a benevolent dictator...
> When the Biden administration introduced a junk fee rule in 2024, the US Chamber of Commerce argued it was “an attempt to micromanage businesses’ pricing structures”, and apartment fees were cut from that federal rule after lobbying by the real-estate industry.
This drives me nuts to read, because it’s usually the same pattern.
Rule -> lobbyists descend -> politicians cave -> carve out that takes away the whole point of the rule -> everyone declares victory
I don't expect that Mamdani will cave in to real estate lobbyists lol. What you're describing is exactly why Establishment Democrats are losing to Mamdani and his ilk (DSA)
reply▲throwaway274483 hours ago
[-] I don't see Mamdani as somehow invulnerable to lobbyists; but they realistically have little leverage over him.
reply▲This is really a banking / credit card thing. CC suppliers put a lot of effort into packaging recurring subscriptions for their businesses because … people forget to cancel. So the real leverage here is not go to each individual website to one click cancel, but just cancel the direct debit / subscription from in your banking or credit card app.
reply▲Maybe it should be required to review quality laws in other countries in general. One advantage is that you don't have to pretend or imagine what will happen if it's been tested in the wild.
reply▲I think there should be a day (e.g. Sylvester), where all subscriptions auto end and renewal should be a proactive choice by the user.
reply▲That's pretty much standard in the EU. Nice to see the biggest city in the US catching up.
reply▲Wow, only in the US. In every other country, this is not a problem.
reply▲Just compel Stripe to do it,* problem 99% solved.
*Direct click-to-cancel with subscription receipt.
Is NYC the first just because every city in California does it by state rules? I'm confused.
reply▲Completely sensible legislation in my eyes.
reply▲Another one that belongs on this list: AI-generated photos in housing listings. You can no longer tell what the property actually looks like, and the images conveniently erase the problem spots you'd only catch in person. False advertising is getting completely out of hand.
reply▲It's crazy that people think they should get away with these. I've seen some examples where basic things like the number of windows or where the garage and driveway are was totally misrepresented - surely they'd at least look at the results?
reply▲CodingJeebus4 hours ago
[-] I agree, but how does one begin to enforce a ban like this? Bait-and-switch has always existed in real estate, which is all the more reason to do full due-diligence and inspect the property thoroughly and not just put in an offer sight unseen. If a seller is using AI to that extent, I'd be worried about what else they're hiding about the property.
reply▲simpaticoder3 hours ago
[-] >I agree, but how does one begin to enforce a ban like this?Look to something that works to modify behavior: credit reports. Make it easy to report an actor for malfeasance, assume they are guilty until proven innocent, and force them to defend themselves to the agency. Since we invent these tools for evil, we may as well use them for good.
reply▲Simply remove protections and deal out massive fines to platforms hosting obviously fraudulent listings, they will figure out solutions overnight.
reply▲And then a million private equity, venture capitalists, management consultants, and other aspiring grifters cried out in terror.
Hopefully they stay silenced.
I don't understand because I'm not American but how does New York the city have such powers? At least where I am, cities aren't really "real" in that they are constructs the provincial government creates (and can uncreate). A city here could never make such a ban.
reply▲No mention of the New York Times, or its practices?
reply▲Why should it be mentioned? The article doesn't call out any other specific company by name. Is the Times really that egregious of a offender compared to the other businesses? Does new york city have a history of selectively enforcing laws to favor local businesses?
reply▲New York Times is one of the worst and most famous offenders of making it hard to cancel your subscription. There are companies that make it as hard or spammy but few with the reach of the NYT
reply▲If anything, based on Louis Rossman’s experiences it’s quite the opposite - petty bureaucrats do their damndest to ensure it’s as difficult as possible to run a business in New York.
reply▲> Is the Times really that egregious of an offender compared to the other businesses?
Yes.
I was thinking more of the Times and Guardian being in rather similar lines of work, and the opportunity to cast some shade on a rival.
reply▲IncreasePosts3 hours ago
[-] NYT is the biggest brand that I know of that pulls these "easy to subscribe, hard to unsubscribe" antics. Especially galling because if you live in california, you can cancel with just a click, so obviously it is possible, but if you live in 49 other states you are forced to listen to a sales pitch from a human before being allowed to unsubscribe
reply▲When a Mayor does more for the citizen than the government...
reply▲What do you mean? The mayor is part of the government.
reply▲Should ban the tips if it’s not included in “hidden fees”, and force restaurants to pay proper wages like other workers.
reply▲seattle_spring4 hours ago
[-] The "and" is very important here. Places like Seattle now mandate servers get a real wage. It inexplicably hasn't changed tip culture at all, so now they get regular wages and still complain when someone doesn't tip 20%+ for a takeout order.
reply▲The mandate stipulates that they can get minimum wage, I wouldn’t call that a “regular” wage, and certainly not a livable one.
reply▲Seattle and its surrounding cities have among the highest minimum wages in the entire world (~$22/hour). You're maybe not renting a studio apartment by yourself but it is far from destitution.
reply▲mschuster913 hours ago
[-] A full-time job should allow at least for a moderate place of living alone, otherwise it's not a minimum wage.
reply▲I mean it's still rough if you want to live close to downtown, but it's also $21.30/hr and going to go up in 2027.
reply▲senordevnyc44 minutes ago
[-] I hate tip culture too, but I don’t blame the employees for it. I never tip for takeout, counter service, retail, etc, and I’ve never actually had anyone complain or so much as make a face.
reply▲for service workers, up to 25k in tips can be deducted from taxable income ("no tax on tips")
reply▲Why should customers need to care about a store’s employees tax bracket
reply▲throwaway274483 hours ago
[-] Because that's the shithole we live in. If you don't like it, take your head out of your ass and crucify a politician or move
reply▲From 2025 to 2028, in a specific list of qualified occupations, as long as your AGI is below $150,000.
reply▲IncreasePosts4 hours ago
[-] Is there something about serving people food that means you should get a tax break? Or is that just a holdover of cash tipping to kindly get servers to actually declare the full value if their tips as wages instead of just saying they magically weren't tipped all year
reply▲This should be federal law.
reply▲Indeed. But the feds have picked a side, and right now, it's not yours.
reply▲A big one I’ve been seeing a lot lately is advertising annual subscriptions as monthly rates. It isn’t $12/month subscription if I have to pay $120 in a lump sum up front. The actual monthly rate is often basically double what they’re advertising.
reply▲>$12/month subscription if I have to pay $120 in a lump sum up front.
Sounds like they are giving you two months free if you pay with a lump sum in advance.
Yes but it's always advertised as "$12/MONTH" in big letters with billed annually written somewhere small and non-obvous.
reply▲Which is a fair discount, but it should be like "15 a month, 120 if you get a year up front" right?
reply▲ $15/month * 12 months = $180
$12/month * 12 months = $144
$120 / 12 months = $10/month
Any chance you could lend Mamdani to the UK? We have a vacancy.
reply▲Hasn’t Sadiq Khan been a similar story, from a Muslim immigrant family turned popular mayor of the nation’s largest city? Though from what I understand he’s from the more business-oriented center-left, in contrast with Mamdani.
reply▲Nice. Now just force stores to display actual prices with tax.
reply▲In Australia they call this price the price-"sorted."
"7 dollars sorted." for example.
Australian here, never heard "sorted". It does sound very Australian though, probably a Queensland thing.
reply▲Queenslander here and not a term I've noticed myself, bar one commercial on tv that used an animated meerkat, other than that not a big consumer of buying much or booking things online, though I'd understand if I saw it tagged to something where one time pricing event might sprawl ... subscription stuff, nah not happening.
reply▲Long overdue, enshittification reaching SaaS undermines trust in all tech in the long term.
reply▲Did a politician's kid rack up hundreds of dollars on some stupid game?
I still don't know why Apple, oft parading as the people's champion, automatically converts trials to subscriptions.
So many scummy apps exploit this by offering a 1 week trial and saying like "only $4/month!" but charging a 1 year's sub after the trial period ends.
expedition323 hours ago
[-] Don't link a card or bank account to your play store account. They can't take money that isn't there.
reply▲aioproductos5 hours ago
[-] I'm building a SaaS right now and made the "non-deceptive" choices this law wants: cancellation is one click from settings, no retention maze, no surprise renewal, 30-day money-back. What surprised me is how much the tooling assumes you want the dark patterns. Billing platforms ship "cancellation flow" templates that are really retention funnels — discount offer, pause offer, survey, guilt screen, then maybe the button. The default path is the deceptive path; you have to actively rip stuff out to be straightforward.
Which I think explains why this needs regulation at all. Every individual dark pattern is locally rational — it demonstrably improves net retention, so any PM optimizing a dashboard will keep it. The cost (people who feel trapped and tell everyone) never shows up in the same spreadsheet. Markets are bad at pricing "customers who quietly hate you."
The one-click-cancel requirement is the part with real teeth. Junk-fee rules die by carve-out (see California's restaurant exemption), but "cancel must be as easy as signup" is binary enough to actually enforce.
clonedhuman5 hours ago
[-] OH NO THIS IS THE SOCIALISMS!!!!!111
reply▲How many legislative days did it take to get this policy in place, I wonder
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