Nvidia, CoreWeave, and Nebius: Inside the Circular Financing of the GPU Boom
131 points
6 hours ago
| 10 comments
| io-fund.com
| HN
aurareturn
5 hours ago
[-]
Why is it a big deal?

Nvidia invested $2b into CoreWeave for 9% equity stake. CoreWeave is spending $35b in CapEx in 2026. Therefore, Nvidia's investment is only 5.7% of CoreWeave's single year CapEx. The other $32b is coming from other sources that isn't Nvidia. This is hardly circular.

Nvidia invests in Neoclouds because it's a hedge against hyperscalers having too much power, ie designing and prioritizing their own chips, and not fully using Nvidia's rack design. Neoclouds give hyperscalers competition. Neoclouds accept Nvidia investments because it allows them to secure Nvidia chips first, which is a competitive advantage since new Nvidia chips have been as much as ~5-20x more efficient than old Nvidia chips.

Nvidia was planning to directly compete against hyperscalers through DGX Cloud. They cancelled public DGX Cloud access when they found that investing in Neoclouds would accomplish the same goals without having to compete against their biggest customers.

If you're Nvidia, it's smart because Neoclouds that you have a large stake in will deploy your full stack from GPUs to networking to storage racks. They will share valuable usage data back to you so you can design a better next generation. Hyperscalers are likely a lot less cooperative, prefer to use their own designs if possible, and will guard their usage data.

reply
vannevar
22 minutes ago
[-]
It sounds like Nvidia is not only supplying GPUs first to neoclouds, it is also supplying them for free if they cannot be resold:

"Furthermore, in the case of CoreWeave, Nvidia has also provided a significant financial backstop against unsold GPU capacity. Under the agreement with an initial value of $6.3 billion, “in instances where [CoreWeave’s] datacenter capacity is not fully utilized by its own customers, NVIDIA is obligated to purchase the residual unsold capacity through April 13, 2032.” In other words, Nvidia is committed to purchasing unsold GPU capacity if CoreWeave is unable to find another buyer. With an initial value of $6.3 billion, there is the potential that the arrangement could become larger over time."

I don't know how Nvidia is handling Coreweave GPU sales revenue in their accounting, but it sounds to me like it should have a pretty big asterisk attached to it. It's more like a consignment arrangement than an actual sale. And it obviously creates a huge incentive for Coreweave to over-order GPUs, since there's no risk (I doubt they're paying cash up front).

reply
vb-8448
3 hours ago
[-]
My understanding is that it's not about the money itself but the model:

- you fund a new company and sign long terms contracts with it - this new company uses the money you gave it and a lot of debt (backed by long term contracts) to build datacenters and buy a lot of GPU - your figures look great

What happens when they run out of debt or funds? If they reach some kind of profitability it's not a big deal, but if not ...

EDIT

Forget to mention the buyback of unused capacity problem: what happens to your figures when you have to buy back tons of unused GPUs?

reply
marcosdumay
3 hours ago
[-]
Yes, circular financing is not by itself a problem.

It being that size, lasting for that long, and the total lack of viable products created by it are the problem. Financing only adds leverage, that makes every loss or profit larger.

reply
brookst
7 minutes ago
[-]
This is not remotely new. When I worked at Intel ~20 years ago, Intel Capital invested in startups that would buy Intel hardware. Some of them succeeded, some did not.

But "invest in companies that may grow your own TAM" is an ancient strategy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (like any strategy).

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it's business as usual.

reply
georgemcbay
1 minute ago
[-]
I don't think its really the novelty of the situation that has people worried, its the scale of it.
reply
philipallstar
3 hours ago
[-]
> If they reach some kind of profitability it's not a big deal, but if not ...

What is the end of this sentence?

reply
14113
2 hours ago
[-]
There are two types of people. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data, and
reply
InsideOutSanta
3 hours ago
[-]
... then it is a big deal.
reply
KaoruAoiShiho
5 hours ago
[-]
You're probably just responding to the headline but this person is an AI bull and isn't claiming it's a big deal, she's going into it and explaining it.
reply
aurareturn
5 hours ago
[-]
It's a bad headline because most of the article isn't about circular financing and it's only 5.7% of anyway.
reply
hirako2000
4 hours ago
[-]
Just the look and feel and the subscribe fixed position in particular, made me bounce.
reply
rapidfl
3 hours ago
[-]
People are looking for the AI bear case - so this headline gotta work better. Its not a bad idea haha. More people suspect there is some circular shenanigans but want confirmation -- so maybe this is the best way to lure them in. Come as the bear, stay for the bull.

With just these 2 comments, now I'm really gonna read that article.

reply
Mistletoe
2 hours ago
[-]
Can someone even outline the AI bull case? I can’t fathom one at all.

https://isaiprofitable.com/

The only profitable company is the one running the scam.

reply
axus
1 hour ago
[-]
Billions of dollars sounds like a literal "big deal", but not necessarily "a problem". Worst case for nVidia is they lose 2 billion dollars, NBD.
reply
didntknowyou
1 hour ago
[-]
anyone can isolate one number to fit their bias. if you look at the wider financing in the industry and the context of multiple AI deals in the billions without any cold hard cash flow or reasoning it kinda makes sense
reply
re-thc
4 hours ago
[-]
> Why is it a big deal? Nvidia invested $2b into CoreWeave for 9% equity stake.

Depends if they actually got the $2b in real money. There's a difference.

It's a big deal if no money was involved. Nothing even entered the company directly. Some deals have structured with Special Purpose Vehicles where money goes to the SPV. The SPV buys GPUs with it (from Nvidia). GPUs is loaned back to the company involved. So this company is stuck with this GPU rental, which may or may not be what they want and not $2b.

This sounds like a bad deal? So Nvidia had to sweeten the deal and promise min utilization on those GPUs by renting it themselves even if they don't need it.

So what's income and what's expense here?

That's the problem. It's inflated and messed up.

reply
eitally
26 minutes ago
[-]
NVIDIA's $2b into CoreWeave was a stock purchase.

https://investors.coreweave.com/news/news-details/2026/NVIDI...

reply
cmiles8
3 minutes ago
[-]
It’s all fine till it’s not. Then it’s a gigantic financial house of cards that comes crashing down.
reply
ilaksh
1 hour ago
[-]
Dumb question, but when the Nebius capacity dashboard says they have around 3 non-preemptible B200s available, does that mean _total_, or is it just how many I myself might be able to rent on demand?

One aspect of the profitability might be the utilization and the pricing a few years down the line for slightly older hardware. Already now it seems like the increased processing you get from newer devices versus the cost difference makes something like an H100 or even A100 significantly less desirable than newer more powerful ones. As an individual, I am happy to be able to get an H200 on demand, but the B200 or B300 can do so much more work with optimized software and models for only modestly more cost that if those become available then from a business perspective you really have to prefer that if you can keep it occupied.

Then with Vera Rubin being like 3 times more effective or whatever, that adds a new layer of gradual obsolescence. So the question is can they keep the pricing up on the older ones a few years down the line enough to fill out the end of those expected payback periods.

The real boogeyman for a neocloud that has heavily invested in expensive Nvidia hardware might be a variation of that beyond Nvidia with startups that have even more dramatic efficiency increases pushing the leading edge even further. For example, if companies like Mythic AI and d-Matrix could somehow rapidly rapidly scale, that would push prices down for all of Nvidia hardware that is significantly less efficient.

I guess so far it doesn't look like any startups with really big efficiency breakthroughs are even close to being able to scale like Nvidia though, especially with the manufacturing and power crunch. But I suspect some of that is because of favoritism and strong arming protecting investments rather than a free and fair ecosystem.

reply
bwfan123
4 hours ago
[-]
Circular financing is a dead horse - dont beat it. Instead, what is more interesting could be: Is there a path to these builds becoming economically profitable ? Towards this, some metrics to watch are: 1) ROI per token per dollar 2) Enterprise token budgets. And at what point there is an overbuild relative to the token roi. Alternatively, pressure on token costs due to the open weights models etc.
reply
wmf
3 hours ago
[-]
These questions can't really be answered now because things are moving too fast. That may explain why people are latching on to things they can prove like circular financing even if those arguments are pretty weak.
reply
484994949595
3 hours ago
[-]
if the money moves in circles the consequences of new money stopping when predicted profitability falls become a lot more dramatic
reply
brookst
4 minutes ago
[-]
all money moves in circles, it's just a question of number of stops.

think about stuff like pork barrel funding for aerospace, which props up jobs, which generates funding for political campaigns that perpetuate pork barrel funding.

reply
RetroTechie
2 hours ago
[-]
Might be a blessing in disguise that these companies can't roll out datacenters as quick as they want (due to financing, power issues, permit delays or whatever).

That puts a cap on surplus (potentially unused?) datacenter capacity that's around by the time the AI bubble pops.

reply
dainiusse
4 hours ago
[-]
Yandex, not nebius. Surprised how the world gets on kgb again and again, and again
reply
brikym
2 hours ago
[-]
Didn't they move to escape that world?
reply
kristjank
1 hour ago
[-]
No one ever leaves the kgb
reply
charcircuit
5 hours ago
[-]
Would this author prefer that Nvidia buy equity using GPUs directly? I don't think it actually counts as circular.
reply
re-thc
4 hours ago
[-]
> I don't think it actually counts as circular.

It is. The GPUs go on to be used to get loans to then get more GPUs.

reply
484994949595
5 hours ago
[-]
boomers will "invest" at a loss in anything that has the AI tag, this is a non issue. the whole ecosystem can bled cash for another couple years while the usual suspects blabber on about the singularity to korean pension funds
reply
Mistletoe
5 hours ago
[-]
Isn’t that just what people tell themselves at the top?

https://www.currentmarketvaluation.com/models/s&p500-mean-re...

reply
uncivilized
4 hours ago
[-]
You're saying people tell themselves at the top that the run can continue for another few years?
reply
wmf
3 hours ago
[-]
That's how every bubble works.
reply
brookst
4 minutes ago
[-]
that's what Bezos was saying at Amazon during the dot com bubble?
reply
paradoxyl
4 hours ago
[-]
I predict a 2030 end date for the bubble, as that is when many globalist think tanks declare they will invade Russia to take their resources, and it's unlikely even China can ignore that, and here comes World War III.
reply
root-parent
4 hours ago
[-]
I just have a AWS Lambda function, who tracks if Pieter Thiel private plane is doing a run to New Zealand...
reply
rwyinuse
2 hours ago
[-]
In case you didn't notice, nobody has invaded Russia since Hitler. Instead it has been Russia invading other countries, using whatever imaginary threat as an excuse.

You may be right about WW3 in 2030, but based on the track record it's more likely that Russia will be the invader.

reply
ilaksh
2 hours ago
[-]
Luckily there is nothing about the current period that reminds anyone of Hitler's time.
reply
AnimalMuppet
2 hours ago
[-]
> I predict a 2030 end date for the bubble...

Plausible.

> ... as that is when many globalist think tanks declare they will invade Russia to take their resources, and it's unlikely even China can ignore that, and here comes World War III.

Complete nonsense, for several reasons.

1. Are you saying that think tanks are saying now that they will invade Russia? If so, I want to see your sources. Or are you saying that you are confident now that think tanks will later say to invade Russia in 2030? If so, I want to see your logic.

2. "Think tanks declare they will invade Russia". Think tanks don't invade anybody, because they don't have armies. Think tanks can say whatever they want; they have to get someone with actual armies to agree.

3. Nobody with an army wants to invade Russia, resources or no. Russia is a terrible place to invade. It's too big, too far, too much strategic depth.

4. Current Russian military doctrine says that an invasion that is succeeding will be grounds for using their nukes. That probably won't mean just tactical nukes. If the military or the think tanks want any part of that, they're incompetent.

5. The resources are more in Siberia than in European Russia. The most likely successful invader would be China (if they're willing to run the risk of the nukes). If the globalist think tanks think that they are going to benefit, they aren't thinking.

reply
mschuster91
2 hours ago
[-]
I've said it before, I will say it again: all that circular investment, all the IOUs, all the billions of dollars of money that are floating around in the entire AI web... it will seriously wreck the US economy, the volume is orders of magnitude worse than what caused the 2007ff global financial crisis. But if OpenAI and Anthropic both manage to enter the fray as well and automatically get made part of the NASDAQ and MSCI World like SpaceX already did... yeah, then it will fry the US pension system alive as well.
reply
janderson215
1 hour ago
[-]
>> the volume is orders of magnitude worse than what caused the 2007ff global financial crisis.

Nobody lives in GPUs and what was the ratio of equity/debt for the toxic assets in 2007?

reply
simsla
1 hour ago
[-]
It looks more similar to the 1929 crash to me, where "too big to fail" blue chip stocks were overinvested and overvalued, and the value adjustments rippled through the rest of the economy. If NVIDIA does get a meaningful value adjustment downwards, it'll probably survive, but it'll impact the S&P500. People will need to sell off other stocks to cover the losses, etc. etc.
reply
montyanderson
59 minutes ago
[-]
nvidia's forward p/e is 24. walmart's is 39.
reply
anon291
4 hours ago
[-]
All financing is circular. This concern is beyond the pale contrived

Financing is circular because creating a liability for one party (debt) creates an asset for another (the bank) off of which more debt can be secured

A bank / financier sells trust and reassurance. They otherwise invent most money from thin air.

reply
lokar
3 hours ago
[-]
That’s not the point. The issue is that loaning/investing to a client so they can buy from you conflates your investments with your revenue.

It may be fine, or not. It it has been a frequent type of manipulation to obfuscate the real accounting situation.

reply
InsideOutSanta
3 hours ago
[-]
Yeah, it's basically creating the illusion of demand and revenue. Lots of fraud in the past relied on companies "investing" into companies which then bought from the investor. I'm not sure to what degree this is happening now, though, and to what degree this is benign.
reply
lokar
1 hour ago
[-]
I’m not sure anyone can really say now, the terms and details are too opaque. But, given the history the opacity is itself a red flag.
reply
philipallstar
3 hours ago
[-]
People are investing because if Nvidia are essentially buying shares with graphics cards then they're motivated to make this stuff work. If the invested in company's share price tanks, Nvidia loses out, and I imagine quite a few people are willing to win or lose alongside Nvidia.
reply
lokar
1 hour ago
[-]
In general for these deals, and the ones with SPVs even more we don’t know. It may be as straightforward as equity for GPUs, but not enough information has been released.
reply