Book prizes don't work how you think
85 points
1 day ago
| 17 comments
| rebeccamakkai.substack.com
| HN
imzadi
4 hours ago
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I've read for screenwriting contests and it is pretty much the same thing. During the first round of reading, they usually expect you to read a minimum number of pages (usually 20 pages). Only one person will read your script during the first round, so if it doesn't catch their attention you will be cut. During the subsequent rounds you are generally expected to read the whole thing, but most of the worst stuff has already been eliminated. In some contests you can see the coverage from previous judges and some you can't. It all depends.
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atlasunshrugged
1 hour ago
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Do you have any recommendations on which screenwriting contests are worth submitting to for a first-time historical fiction screenwriter? I've previously published a nonfiction book and am familiar with that side of things but am brand new to the screenwriting world and there are far more film festivals and competitions than I expected (and almost all seem to charge a submission fee)
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culi
5 hours ago
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Pretty interesting post. I guess I'm surprised that it's just like 5 people doing most of it and the most complex structure is still just 2 stages usually (Pulitzer: 5 judges send 3 books to a special council to pick a winner). It makes me think you probably get as much value from following a few specific critics as you would from following these prizes

I wonder how the reviewers feel when authors like Ursula K. Le Guin refuse awards

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arjie
55 minutes ago
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Haha, very interesting. I hadn't thought about the mechanics of it all but from the title I suspected it might be something like this. There's no objective measure after all of what a good book is. It's not bad for the process. The top few universally seem pretty good.

I have noticed that the Hugo Awards appear to have declined somewhat in quality. The Murderbot series is enjoyable, yes, but it's a winner just like Dune and I think that's odd. Perhaps it's my tastes that are changing or my tastes are stagnating and the world is evolving. Ah well.

Oh and, about the cronyism angle in literary prizes, I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Nobel_Prize_in_Literature is a good read. They picked members of their own academy that year and eventually one of the winners killed himself (perhaps over it).

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TurdF3rguson
36 minutes ago
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Agreed on Murderbot, it's a fun read but there's no big new ideas there and that's what Hugo used to be about.
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ofalkaed
4 hours ago
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Related read; a first hand account by one of the 2012 Pulitzer jury members giving a good account of the process and attempting to explain why no literature prize was awarded that year.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/letter-from-the-...

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m463
4 hours ago
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Sorry, I laughed... :)

> I’ve judged prizes both pre-2020, when we were sent stacks of books, and post-2020, when everything had switched to zip drives and online databases.

Considered medium-to-high-capacity at the time of its release, Zip disks were originally launched with capacities of 100 megabytes (MB), then 250 MB, and finally 750 MB. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_drive

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sanswork
3 hours ago
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I remember drooling over zip disks when I was a kid. By the time I had enough of my own money to buy one they were clearly not the best choice anymore but I still did for the same reason around the same time I bought a stack of old sparcstations off ebay.
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epihelix
2 hours ago
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I briefly used Zip drives back in the day. They were amazing, when the only alternative portable media was a 3.5" floppy.

And then USB thumb drives came along, and made them obsolete pretty much overnight.

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SoftTalker
18 minutes ago
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Amazing, until you got the "click of death"
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ColdStream
2 hours ago
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Also had a lot less worries about a random bad sector turning up with USB.
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auto
2 hours ago
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It’s funny, I had the same experience, and my stepdad told me recently that they close to buying me one, and eventually decided to just do a full upgrade of our machine instead. I’m definitely thankful we got a brand new machine instead.
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code_duck
3 hours ago
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I'd guess she probably means USB flash storage devices.
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xboxnolifes
2 hours ago
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Most certainly. I used to hear people call usb drives zip drives (and thumb drives) a lot ~2 decades ago. Truthfully, I didn't even know zip drives were their own thing until this comment chain. I just though it was an older term for usb drives.
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ishanr
3 hours ago
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Everything about the book publishing industry is antiquated.

I wish Amazon focused on books instead of ecommerce.

The real disruption of books haven't really happened.

I thought eBooks and digital books would get us there, but it simply hasn't changed anything.

The Steam (valve software) of books hasn't happened yet.

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yoz-y
3 hours ago
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I love ebooks and audiobooks. But the fact that I can’t legally lend or sell them (same with steam btw) means that it’s at best a lateral step.
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kccqzy
3 hours ago
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Lending or selling ebooks necessarily requires DRM. A large part of the community thinks having DRM is way worse than not being able to lend or sell.
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WolfeReader
2 hours ago
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Selling books doesn't require DRM at all. I buy DRM-free books all the time.

As an example: Kobo will tell you, at the bottom of each book's page, if it has DRM or not. And it will happily sell you a book without DRM and let you download it.

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stevenwoo
3 hours ago
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This matches what was lampooned in Erasure(2001) by Percival Everett and adapted into the movie American Fiction.
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TeaVMFan
3 hours ago
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As an indie author (https://frequal.com/novels), this makes me glad I haven't submitted my novel yet to any of these contests. The chance that a submission fee could be wasted by chance (not a match for the reviewer's interest or mood that day) is just too great. It seems that the larger publishing houses are more willing to shell out on the chance to win this lottery, according to the article.
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ungreased0675
3 hours ago
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It sounds quite arbitrary and subjective, even if the judges believe they’re following a process.
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Aachen
2 hours ago
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I came away feeling like they acknowledged that throughout, save for the promotional bit at the end that I guess is there obligatorily
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neponeko
3 hours ago
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What cronyism buys you is restarts. Having an enforcer can get you more than the 20 pages. You’ll be read to the end by every judge, and you may not get the award (these are competitive, and even most people with good enforcers aren’t great writers) but you’ll get a thought-out reason if it’s a rejection. You’ll know that everyone tried to find a yes because, while they were allowed to say no and eventually did, not taking you seriously would be bad for their careers and reputations. Only 0.01% of people have that kind of access, though, and you don’t write your way to getting those agents and publicists—you’re either born into it or you’re not. The rest of us poor loser fuckers get tossed at the first bump, which could be a minor copy error like a missing comma.

The truth about the literary world is that, while a lack of talent can impose a ceiling—no one gets book awards in fiction for being rich or famous if they can’t write at least as well as an above-average college grad—there is no level of talent that overcomes the lack of access, and it’s a kind of access you’re born into, to get a fair read from anyone who matters in the industry.

It’s all a scam and even most people who succeed spend more trying to fulfill the expectations of the published-novelist/public-intellectual role than they’ll ever get back from it in royalties or options or anything else. It’s an exhausting, dismal life in truth. The lifestyle costs of being someone who can get a $500,000 advance every two years run to… easily that rate.

If you actually want to write and have a decent life, you have three options:

1. Write genre and go back in time to the 1970s when getting a literary agent (as opposed to a schmagent who can’t get anyone to read anything) was possible.

2. Figure out the self-publishing game and get really, really good at it.

3. Take a job that has absolutely nothing to do with writing and accept that you’ll take three times as long to produce a book as a career author. Self-publish or work through university presses and don’t expect to be read by more than a few hundred people.

I don’t love Silicon Valley but if they had done something about publishing in the era of “disruption” I would have cheered it on.

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shermantanktop
1 hour ago
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This all sounds informed and authoritative. And it’s believable. But can I ask how you came to these conclusions? Did you attempt this? Do you know authors getting 500k every two years?
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fumeux_fume
2 hours ago
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Except for the prize committees outsourcing roughly the same sets of judges, they work a lot like how you’d expect. The judges pickup a bunch of books and choose the ones they like the most. Since the author makes it clear how subjective the process truly is, you can assume that personal biases play a huge part in how winners are chosen.
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deepsun
2 hours ago
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TL;DR: It's not fair. Just like every other competition. If you want to win, you ought to do not just better, but much better than others.
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tacostakohashi
2 hours ago
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Right, one could make pretty much the same observations about how hiring / promotion decisions are made, how investment decisions are made, and probably any number of other things that people like to pretend are objective/scientific but are actually just a matter of opinion.
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gowld
4 hours ago
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I read the article.

Book Prizes Do Work How I Think.

It's just like, someone's opinion, man.

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charcircuit
4 hours ago
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>1) Not every judge can look at every single book; and 2) When a judge realizes they don’t love a book, they can put it down.

There is room for LLMs to disrupt book judging by being able to read every single book.

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sssilver
4 hours ago
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I feel like LLMs are not quite equipped to answer "is this wonderful and delightful" yet.
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neponeko
3 hours ago
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You should meet literary agents.

An LLM is not as good as a skilled human who has already committed to giving your work a fair read. It is far superior to the quality of read you will ever get from a literary agent unless your parents are Manhattan old money.

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bariumbitmap
3 hours ago
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With comments like these I genuinely can't tell if it's a joke or not.
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pfdietz
4 hours ago
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The book was rejected because it doesn't say "load-bearing" and "now here's the thing" enough.
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apparent
1 hour ago
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I think the last thing most authors would want is to have their book fed into an LLM, word for word, right when it's just come out.
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zeroonetwothree
4 hours ago
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I guess if you want the most average book to win
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boznz
4 hours ago
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Good post which basically states the f*cking obvious about how any "prize" or "winner" of any subjective category works.
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kubb
2 hours ago
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WHY are we capitalizing RANDOM words within MULTIPLE paragraphs?
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xboxnolifes
2 hours ago
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They didn't.
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crackercrews
1 hour ago
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I think she's missing the point here. First she says:

> Every couple of years, someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about complains publicly that judging panels are picking books based on wokeness or diversity quotas or some other nonsense.

OK, so the judging panels are not picking books based on diversity quotas, cool. But then she admits that the longlists are subject to diversity quotas:

> It’s true that longlists don’t look like they used to. This might have to do with prize committees themselves finally diversifying, which means a broader variety of opinions and tastes. And it might have to do with all of us preferring books that, you know, do not sound like every other book we’ve read.

> It turns out that when we read broadly and fairly, it’s no longer true that 95% of prizes go to straight white men, go figure.

To be honest, I don't pay much attention to book prizes, but I'm well aware of claims that it's not just that "white men don't get 95% of prizes anymore" but rather that in some cases, white men are not included at all, despite making up a fairly large chunk of the population. For example, apparently no white men born in the last 40 years have published literary fiction in the New Yorker. [1]

Are there book prizes with similar track records? I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine that whoever is deciding on publishing at the New Yorker is probably pretty similar to the people handing out book awards.

1: https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-vanishing-white-male-...

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deanputney
56 minutes ago
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Neither part of that quote mentions a quota for the longlists. Am I missing something?
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crackercrews
37 minutes ago
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It does not explicitly admit it, and seeing the quotes pulled separately make it harder to infer. But it's pretty clear when read in context that she's admitting that diversity is being factored into the longlists (which of course play a huge role in which books eventually win).

Are these quotas or just nudges? It's hard to say. But I've been in the room when decisions like this were made, by institutions that are legally barred from even considering race. But in reality, race wasn't just part of the decision, it was determinative.

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