https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/nasdaq-che...
Edit: thanks for the downvotes. Defenders of capitalism unite!!! lol. Free market right?
You could make a decent argument that capitalism will very likely end-game devolve into crony-capitalism as it's typical failure mode, but I don't think it's written in stone.
It's funny to me. Everyone rails about Atlas Shrugged being some libertarian fantasy story. I always read it as an allegory warning about crony capitalism and how it ruins society along with a story about trains and magical perpetual motion machines.
See QQNE and SPNE.
American libertarians often imagine some kind of wonderland capitalism where everyone agrees to play by the rules that aren't enforced by anyone. To my knowledge this has never existed as a long-term equilibrium and it can't exist. I've yet to meet anyone who can tell me how their imaginary ideas go up against claims like
1. Encouraging infinite growth with no controls or limits will always lead to monopolism and is a one-way ratchet
2. Power vacuums are always filled (no public government leads to private companies stepping in and taking the dictatorial role, this time without any of the democracy)
3. Power always corrupts
Remember kids: socialism is judged by how it failed in real life, capitalism is judged by how perfect it is in theory
Try actually defining capitalism in a way that doesn't apply to basically any random society since the dawn of agriculture.
Stuff like people buying and selling items using a currency for a price the individual chooses has been common to basically every human society we have written records for.
The formalization of the process of buying shares in a company and receiving dividends/profits as a result is a bit newer, but the general concept of "I give you money, you use it to make something and sell it then give me money back" has been around for roughly the same amount of time as currency itself.
Anyways, my point is that there is a lot of things to criticize about our current world/economy, using the term "capitalism" while doing so is too vague to be useful in any way.
(Communism/socialism does have more of an actual definition, but very few people are aware of or use it, so it doesn't help all that much).
.. feudalism?
Which, AFAIK, lasted much longer, and is just not the same thing?
It completely ignores the decades of external hostility toward any nation that attempted to build a socialist economy. Almost every attempt has been met with near immediate intervention from captialist super powers, particularly the USA. Nixon activeley worked to cause the military coup in Chile, Cuba has faced the longest trade embargo in modern history (and yet still managed to outperform its peers in the region in healthcare and literacy). Its unscientific to attribute these struggles purely to internal failure when they are subject to deliberate economic warfare.
Secondly, your definitions are being stretched to fit your thesis. Scandinavia is not "socialist flavored" it IS a social democracy, with free markets. Claiming China's success is from captialism is ignoring that its economy relies entirely on state owned land, state owned and controlled banks, and state owned companies, and mandatory five year plans coming from the state.
If we classify any successful state-led initiative as "capitalist" and any blockaded, intervened upon state as "purely socialist" then the argument is an unfalsifiable truism.
“True communism has never been tried”
1. Capitalism where there is no government or regulatory interference, and the "invisible hand of the free market" produces some kind of utopian society based purely on every business abiding by rules enforced by no one, where somehow corporations don't take advantage of workers they way they do now despite there being no laws against it.
2. The same thing but sarcastically because it's obvious that that system would be demonstrably worse than the restricted version of capitalism that we have now.
Obviously this all falls apart when capitalism can buy legislation. We are seeing how the USA is currently eroded by a few oligarchs.
Society needs somethings to try to stop corruption wehther government rules or non government actions.
Under pure capitalism what stops this?
Adam Smith, the Wealth of Nations
It does not mean it is state-owned.
If there's an issue I think it's earlier in the IPO pipeline.
The entire reason for these seasoning periods is to give the market time to determine what the company is actually worth to the market itself. Bypassing those rules to get it in earlier says to me that they don't believe it will settle at a price near its start.
If I IPO my lemonade stand at $1T valuation do I deserve to be in that "largest X companies" list? Or does it only make sense if I can maintain that valuation over time?
Index investing is too high a percentage of total investing so the rules matter to the whole market.
They did lower the free float rule
The very fact that they were asking the question is such a huge red flag.
Bought an air mattress recently. Way better than a sleeping bag on the ground, even though I can also manage that.
But we are thread is about corruption (probably with bribes, and stealing the money of people that didn't participate on the transaction), while everybody keeps pretending is a consensual sale.
dont believe me, look up how much a open loop DIY system costs.
Index and other funds are forced to buy as their contractual mandate is to follow the index or methodology set out by the fund.
And beyond that there is a lot of capital in active funds that use an index as their benchmark. So they don’t have to buy anything, but they are trying to beat their benchmark so not buying is an active decision with risk.
These are all products that people and funds can choose to buy or not buy.
If I'm already invested, and they change the rules on me in a way I don't like, I have to sell, and that's a taxable event.
So if I have invested in a Nasdaq index, and I don't want a massive exposure to SpaceX prematurely, I am forced to close my position and immediately pay taxes on the profits. I pay the taxes, and now my investing capital is reduced because Elon wanted to force index funds to buy SpaceX stock, which indirectly forces all current owners to buy SpaceX.
It's not future buyers so much as people that are already exposed, and were probably not counting on getting rug pulled by the Nasdaq.
So no, you are correct that no one new to investing is forced to own SpaceX stock, but millions of existing fund holders are now exposed to a stock in a way that simply wasn't possible when they put their money in, and will be penalized if they don't want that.
There's a cost to selling, the brokerage fee plus in many countries there's then taxes due on any profits. Many people would prefer to have unrealized gains where they can pay the tax years ahead, when they need the money.
(Also please don't make the same comment 4+ times.)
I don't think that the claim of "the Nasdaq is misusing their institutional trust" is a controversial claim. Moreover, one of the things that people choose when they (401k, pension funds, passive investors) is institutional mechanisms that prevent potentially mispriced items from entering their portfolios.
Its also a matter of principle. They had a seasoning period to allow for market price discovery over time, and they created a process to waive it for one company. Its not unreasonable to say that that is a bad thing.
So whether the index funds do or don't buy a certain stock has direct implications for real, non-millionaire, people.
I have a tiny minute slice of SPCX from owning VTI total market ETF but my 401K holds no SpaceX.
And guess what, your VTI which does track NASDAQ as part of it's index is effected by this inclusion rule.
Not only is he wrong that it doesn't impact him, because VTI is impacted, but the whole premise is wrong. "I'm not harmed" does not mean things are fine. If I go murder your neighbor, will you come to my trial and demand I go free because you weren't harmed? Should the judge let me go because he wasn't harmed?
QQQ tracks the Nasdaq 100. It's an index fund. If the index includes a new ticker, then QQQ has to buy it.
Buying QQQ doesn't seem like going out of one's way. I don't understand your comment. "ETFs and chill" is a very common investment strategy.
QQQ is more volatile and higher risk than the S&P 500, the people buying it should understand that.
Asked and answered. Whatever cute point you're trying to make is rendered moot by real market dynamics and index inclusion rules.
So, who is being forced to buy that index?
Quite likely that the only sensible one for most people (~global equities) will track S&P 500 internally. So essentially employees are being forced to hold whatever the index includes.
Hopefully it's less of a problem with Nasdaq, but it was a real worry.
Nobody has any idea what point you're trying to make, and the fact that you're repeating yourself and not being clearer makes everyone suspect that you don't have any idea either.
https://etfdb.com/index/nasdaq-100-index/ are the ETFs that track that index.
It is like saying that the worst thing about twin earthquakes in Venezuela was not the fact that there were two of them, because there could have been three.
I cut out my nasdaq100 and have generally allocated towards ex us
Schwab won't let you, because even if you're 95% right, you'll still probably lose 95% of your money...
It's quite difficult to be 100% right...
And if you are buying an instrument where you can lose more than you invested, the approach maybe wrong? :-)
This is precisely why shorting can lose more than you "invest", because you're not buying an instrument, you're selling it with the intent (or promise, depending on what kind of instrument it is) to buy it back later, hopefully at a lower price.
The risk is unbounded.
there are easier ways to make money than betting against Elon Musk. See Tesla and how well it worked out for short sellers there.
I like SpaceX as a company (especially Starlink) but it's over valued in my opinion. In about a year when there's a little bit of public financial history and the dilution is over i'll probably buy in.
Note this has nothing to do with my feelings about SpaceX. I am Elon hater nr. 1 and hope SpaceX burns to dust, I only hope speculative investors burn down with it.
EDIT/CLARIFICATION: This post is fundamentally anti-capitalist. You may feel like I am mis-informed or misunderstanding. I am both of theses things if and only if Capitalism truly is self-evident.
My parent wanted to make some unearned money by making speculations and gambles. If they were allowed and if they were successful, they would have made a bunch of money while contributing nothing. Every single dollar they would have made in their speculative gamble would have come from somebody else who actually contributed and but didn’t get the full value from their work.
I am glad that my parent was denied the privileged to participate in this systematic exploitation. The ideal number of speculative investors is zero, and any movement towards that number is an improvement for workers.
You feel a stock is overvalued and you short it. You feel a stock is undervalued and you buy it. What's the difference?
Yeah, I know why people _want to_ (betting), but it doesn't serve a broader economic purpose.
Lots of replies either personally benefit or just assume the "way things are" is the best, but the stock market has gotten highly abstracted from the original intention of providing capital to grow companies via means other than bank loans.
I get the argument that shorts and friends help make the price the stock is being sold at more accurate, and I believe there's some truth there, but also we constantly see stock prices fluctuate by 10+% in a single day and I have trouble believing the actual value of all these companies changed that much in a single 24 period.
It’s all betting.
If someone wants to dress it up in jargon or talk about beneficial second order effects, they can. But if putting money on an outcome you can’t control isn’t gambling, I don’t know what is.
its a reasonable expectation that 3 months after an IPO the price will be lower than it was at IPO
not really a bet so much as that on average the prices at IPO are a local maxima
You’re not going to make up a silly low number because you actually have to buy the bananas yourself at some point, and you help price discovery because now that guy isn’t buying bananas at a higher price than someone is willing to sell them for.
Plus there's option traders who naturally need to go short sometimes.
(under the assumption your broker is managing their risk if your losses from a short position potentially exceeds capital available for liquidation if the trade moves against you)
Elon Musk is politicized so you're going to have people wanting to short against him, but who do not really understand what they're doing and stand a good chance of losing a significant amount of money. Brokers tend to restrict this activity to certain types of investors who are more able to appreciate the risks, to say nothing of baseline necessities like needing a margin account to cover potential losses.
Shorting is very different than just buying a stock.
So, it's doing pretty well!
https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/indices/equity/sp-500-ex-i...
Does the same rule work in crypto?
I love shaking up the firms. Gives normal people a chance to build wealth.
Buzz word filled posts like this are the most annoying to read on here
My best guess, it makes it harder to get loans in the future.
Which is pretty important! It's my understanding that from all that money they raised during their IPO, a good amount of it went right back out the door again to pay off misc loans for the twitter acquisition. They may only have bought themselves 6 more months of time given their purported burn rate (mostly driven by AI investment), so they're going to need more loans really soon, or another major stock offering.
If they had only ~6 more months they (+auditor) had to issue a warning. The 6 is not a hard number, AFAIK, but surely a point where it must be reported.
So honestly, I doubt it's the case.
It's better described as "it increases operational risks to SpaceX". When they face some future difficulty, the odds they can come out of it are lowered. Which is itself a factor that partners consider, including employees, because obviously people prefer to bet their livelihoods on more of a sure thing.
That article compares them to Oracle. Who are, as it goes, pretty similar: run by rich people with a media empire who have their teeth deep in government systems.
These bonds could get worse and worse but if US state and federal governments continue to put thumbs on scales it doesn't matter. The US free market isn't uniformly free.
What is to say that SpaceX and Oracle won't get these benefits? (Government buying bonds, trashing ratings agencies, leaning on banks to lend etc.)
Nothing obvious, I posit. So what is the value of a bond when a government is increasingly likely to manipulate the market for it?
And that is putting aside the second order of government interference: foreign governments putting their thumbs on the scale with their own investment funds and influenceable buyers, to buy influence over a government that favours these firms.
After all, if you truly believe what you say with conviction, the sensible thing to do would be to buy up as many SpaceX bonds as you can if you think they're so undervalued.
Q: Why is this stock so valuable? A: Duh, because Musk is worth a kajillion dollars and everything he touches is gold!
Q: Why is Musk worth a kajillion dollars? A: Because he holds so many shares of extremely valuable companies, silly!
Spacex will raise more money again, they have no known path to structural profitability.
That can snowball: wider spreads → higher borrowing costs → more stress → wider spreads. The existing bonds' coupons are fixed, so the real bite is on future issuance and refinancing.
Lots of capital-intensive companies (SpaceX is definitely in this category) lean heavily on debt markets to fund ongoing investment and roll over maturing debt, so losing cheap access is a big deal.
1. SpaceX issued long-term bonds whose coupon (ie, "interest rate") was 6.5%.
2. Those bonds are now trading for less than their face value. That means that if you buy one of those bonds on the secondary market, you will get a return (yield) of 7.387% (if the price of a bond goes down, but the coupon stays the same, the yield goes up).
3. This doesn't affect SpaceX directly, but it tells you that if SpaceX were to issue new bonds today, they would have to offer 7.4% coupon on them, not 6.5%. Note that even though that was caused by a 10% drop in the bond value, it's a 13% increase in cost of borrowing!
SpaceX is a cash-flow negative company that depends on debt and selling equity in order to pay the bills. They will have to issue bonds again, and those bonds will be more expensive.
Note that the shortest maturity bonds don't have to be repaid for 5 years, so the impact on cash is not going to manifest for a while...at least 5 years time (assuming they did another bond offering tomorrow). In that sense it's a nothingburger.
The immediate impact it could have is if spacex depends on issuing new, shorter-term debt (lines of credit, etc) whose price could be impacted by the market's perception of their riskiness.
https://github.com/aspenmayer/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean-m...
https://github.com/aspenmayer/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean-m...
Oh well… the article probably hasn't anything useful or important to say anyway. Time to move on.
Could you imagine the abuse of power that could happen if one person held over 50% of the voting power at such a company?
Copied from google's response to "new york times governance"
Google's AI also says that the NYT has had that structure since 1957.
Ford has something similar from the 1930s. (Dodge did too until it was bought.) Raylon (synthetic textiles) did it in the 1920s and the company behind Jack Daniels did it right after Prohibition.
Google says that the NYSE banned dual-class between 1926 and 1986; I don't know how to reconcile that with Ford.
The common justification for this is that for a media company (NYT) you want a person or family to take responsibility for the editorial content, not a pure profit seeker. Facebook has it both ways and typically denies it has editorial control.
IMO, the flaw of markets is that they are short sighted. Sometimes this allows states to outmaneuver them with a longer view. Current exhibit A: China. Historically state intervention has been worse in the long run. But who knows. If we went into a depression a lot of people may think state intervention is a better system, as many admired the USSR during the Great Depression.
The theoretical arguments against socialism (or, more specifically, centrally planned state production) given by Hayek is that pricing is information and markets are computers on that information, ergo changing the information gives you a bad result. This certainly applied to the kinds of production the Soviet Union loved to engage in, but there's no particular reason why it can't apply to capitalist enterprise as well. I mean, Facebook's headcount or market cap alone is larger than some actual nation-states' population or GDP.
Just like how the USSR was nominally socialist but practically engaged in exactly the same state-controlled mode of production as feudalism, today's corporate entities are nominally capitalist but practically feudalist. The medieval historians in the room would probably balk at me using the word "feudalist" to describe either, so to be clear, what I mean is "an economic system in which the majority of profit goes to landowners / platform owners / the state / etc". In this economic mode, companies can warp markets to their whims in exactly the same way Congress can.
Except, Congress is democratically controlled. Joint-stock corporations are inherently oligarchial in structure: control of the company is assigned based on how many shares you can afford to buy, so the company answers to the amount of money that has capitalized it, and not any other concern[0]. The "innovation" in Facebook's IPO was to go from internal oligarchy to internal autocracy - to install Mark Zuckerberg as God-Emperor of Facebook and largely depose the shareholder class that normally runs publicly-traded entities.
You'd think markets would have priced in this risk, but Facebook IPO'd at the peak of its hype and was able to get away with this. The funny thing about Hayek's distributed market computer is that it does not actually reach perfectly efficient price computation. If it did, you could crack RSA keys by placing a sufficient number of suitably complex options trades. Markets can put a bounty on fixing incorrect pricing information, but they can also just refuse to accept corrected pricing. Everyone rushing into Facebook stock counteracted the few people concerned about the ridiculously autocratic governance structure. And now that it's obvious that such a thing was a problem, it's too late to challenge it, because now Facebook has platform holder money. Zuckerberg can bribe the shareholders to not care about their lack of control.
The history of state intervention is very fraught, but there's one subset of interventions that has a better track record than most: those intended to stymie autocrats of trade. The state cannot correctly set prices better than a market can, but it absolutely can prevent other state-like entities from doing the same thing. Likewise, it would behoove the world's competition law and securities regulators to investigate and regulate the use of dual-class shares to retain control over companies you do not own.
Unfortunately, the current administration is unlikely to do anything about this.
Actually, to make matters worse, Texas is deliberately trying to pour gasoline on the problem by disenfranchising minority shareholders. I believe this was done specifically to give Elon Musk even more control over SpaceX, because Delaware made the mistake of actually entertaining a shareholder lawsuit over Musk's pay packet. If Facebook was an autocracy that bribed its shareholders into compliance, then SpaceX is an autocracy that says, "Fuck you, pay me". If there's one thing that gives me hope, it's that the markets are rightfully rejecting this obvious attempt at offloading Musk's toxic junk onto retail. But this is mainly because Elon failed to generate suitable hype to get the market to buy into his trash, not because markets are actually good at pricing in this specific kind of risk.
[0] In fact, this is part of why you see companies go to great lengths to fight unions, even when negotiating with a union would be cheaper. The shareholder class considers democratic control (one worker, one vote) to be an existential threat.
That rule was dropped sometime in the 80s.
Berkshire Hathaway is possibly the most famous from the 80s/90s. The class A shares are significantly more expensive and proportionately even more powerful than the class B shares. The lower price version was important back when physical exchanges didn’t support fractional shares as they do today.
2. If his claims are incorrect and poorly sourced, feel free to call them out. But his research appears to have been rather exhaustive on this topic.
3. If there are other sources that contradict these claims and are well researched, links are welcome
Their S-1 projects $28 trillion TAM, with 93% of that attributed to AI, ~6% to connectivity via Starlink, and only ~1% for space launch capability.
Of their $20 billion CapEx spent in 2025, 60% was spent towards AI data-centers, 20% was spent towards Starlink satellites, and ~20% was spent towards actually building Starship and Falcon 9. That's gone up to nearly 80% towards AI in Q1 2026.
Of course, "AI" makes up only ~20% of their current revenues.
So... this company is priced as an AI startup but it's actually a satellite internet and space launch business.... or is it? Shame to see the coolest thing that Elon did be eaten by the AI monster.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1181412/000162828026...
And now they report that investors, many of whom are their customers, are suffering...
These things have a way of working themselves out. But look at almost all IPOs and the next 12 months the stock is down 50+% so I'd rather wait. And honestly when I buy, it's to hold 10+ years, not make a quick buck and it's because I believe in the value. You can believe in SpaceX but also still believe the market and the dynamics of IPOs is almost criminal for retail investors.
It's almost as bad as crypto token sales tbh.
https://site.warrington.ufl.edu/ritter/ipo-data/
And his data shows that IPOs for the most part perform about as well as their respective market. That is large multi-billion dollar IPOs perform about as well as the broad market, and smaller IPOs (which constitute the vast majority of IPOs) perform about as well as other small-cap companies.
In other words, investing in IPOs doesn't give much of an advantage or disadvantage compared to investing in other similarly sized companies.
What's true is that most stocks, including IPOs, don't do well in the long run. The half-life of a publicly traded company is something like 10 years.
The business fundamentals are rarely sound for modern IPOs, especially anything Elon adjacent. His companies are just as bad as crypto token sales in terms of their hype. Heck, some of the stock price appreciation of Tesla _was_ driven by their ownership of crypto for a year or two.
It really is weird market from outside. Like millions of cards waiting to be encapsulated in plastic with tiny label on them naming a number. Depending on number the value can go up multiple times. Each of these paid at least something like 20 dollars...
"Is the company market cap low? Do they have a decent product? Is it plausible they'll 10x? Yes -> Buy some amount I can afford loosing"
For example, Tesla IPO'd at $5B cap, it was perfectly plausible to believe they'd be worth $50B some day. Shopify IPO'd at $1.3B, Square at $3B, 10x was perfectly believable. Uber IPO'd at $75B, I did not believe they'd be worth $750B any time soon, or ever. Do I believe SpaceX will be worth 20T in like 10 years? Lol. Fmao even.
Today's IPOs at $1T+ means that private money figured this out and cut the retail public out, IPOs seems to be a really terrible deal these days.
So I wouldn't really give too many points to "the general public" for this one.
He said he aimed to have 5000 Optimus robots out by end of 2025, 50000 by 2026 and 10 times that in 2027.
He promised in 2015 that full autonomous driving would arrive in 2 years and we aren't there yet 11 years later. He even said in 2016 that there would be coast-to-coast autonomous driving in 2017.
He promised manned missions to Mars by 2024-2025 in multiple interviews between 2011 and 2016.
He promised in 2016 that there would be solar roofs expansions by 2017 that didn't pan out, he promised AGI by 2025 in 2024.
Elon Musk has repeatedly lied about outcomes of his ventures, gotten crazy valuations based on those exaggerations and now people are starting to finally wake up that he isn't as good as his ego.
Lots of rational people kept shorting, thinking sanity would prevail, and ended up losing bigly.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-new-yorker-interview/the-...
Why? Have US-backed NGOs never saved a single life with their spending?
You can argue it's not worth the spending, perhaps, but you really can't argue that it's not happening somewhere.
> This is a reason why the US is trillions in debt.
This is a tiny, tiny, nearly invisible fraction of that reason.
Trump's OBBBA will be another reason, expected to add several trillion in the next few years. So yeah, real cuts are probably needed, but the DOGE people aren't achieving that in net.
(This is a reference to Bill Clinton's extremely successful "Reinventing Government" initiative which actually balanced the federal budget until the next republican came along...)
He is obviously a liar, a conman and morally suspect. But he has mastered the art of lying in a way that people want to believe. So much so that he can separate fools from their money to the tune of billions.
When you can do that, every economic institution on the planet wants a piece. It's a firehouse of ill gotten cash, and those supporting his staggering rise to power are there to grab a bit of filthy lucre for themselves. It's a wealth transfer than comes along maybe only a few times in a generation.
Everyone knows he's a complete fraud even as they enable him to pull off all these stunts.
I think it's a way some businesses just do business and the market has not issued a correction to that. Maybe it should?
Name 3 accomplishments he made and I'll show you world class work done elsewhere by other companies. The only thing he did which was notable was Starlink and I'll gladly grant you that. China is about to eat Starlink's lunch with their own tech.
Again I think people overestimate Musk's contributions to the world.
2. Made the modern EV relatively commonplace; no other manufacturer was taking it seriously until Tesla succeeded, and took many years to catch up, although they have
3. Re-usable rockets / higher launch cadence leading to significantly cheaper costs to put things in space. No major competition yet.
Profitably reusable rockets were a major accomplishment. People like to argue against this. Every argument I've seen is either saying it doesn't actually save money or it wasn't new, neither of which is correct. It's very hard to argue with the numbers here; SpaceX is now launching more into orbit than every other launch provider combined.
I think the main reason people downplay these things is precisely because his own claims are so exaggerated. Doing 165 orbital launches in a year just doesn't sound impressive when he promised we'd be sending people to Mars years ago.
Autonomous driving is the clearest counterexample: by March 2026 Waymo had logged over 220 million rider-only miles with nobody in the driver's seat, and was doing 400,000+ rides per week across six US metros. Tesla's consumer product is still officially "Full Self-Driving (Supervised)," and Tesla itself says it does not make the car autonomous. Mercedes has Level 3 certification. Tesla has none.
Optimus missed the stated 5,000 robots in 2025. As of July 2026, Tesla still isn't selling it and is only preparing manufacturing capacity. Meanwhile Agility's Digit is in commercial warehouse deployment today. Solar Roof is worse: Musk targeted 1,000 installations per week, and Wood Mackenzie estimated Tesla averaged about 21 in 2022. Tesla's disputed the number but offered no replacement count.
SpaceX is the real exception. It genuinely leads, and the engineering is remarkable. But it's still a decade overdue on "crewed Mars by 2024." That's the point: on the one venture where "more progress than anyone else" is actually true, the promise is still failing by over a decade.
The criticism isn't that nothing comes to pass. It's that concrete near term promises repeatedly fail and get replaced by bigger ones. When a valuation depends on being uniquely far ahead, competitors catching up erases that premium fast.
Lies. Waymo beats Tesla in FSD. Optimus is nothing while China has full fucking martial arts robots. It's 2026 where's that 2025 manned Mars mission? Where's that 2025 AGI promise (currently running itself in circles.) His solar roof tile idea was a bunk plan and any regular roofer could've told you that.
China made a fucking electric car that can KITT jump. The only way Teslas get off the ground is when they hit curbs at batshit insane speeds.
Elon and his companies, outside of SpaceX, are generally frauds. Down to PayPal, which thinks it has a right to YOUR MONEY if you even so much as sneeze wrong (theft by contract.)
It’s a variant of the people who pick “Jay-Z” in the meme question “would you rather have half a million dollars or lunch with Jay-Z?”
2.31% spread over treasuries is heading for junk bond status?
We'll see what ratings agencies think of the health of the company.
The company has plenty of revenue, and if needed can just turn off the r&d tap and become a boring company. Terrible for the shareholders obviously, but the bond holders will be fine.
I mean the bond yield is 6.65% over US Treasury returns of 4.75% so it's not like everyone's running in fear of their imminent collapse either. But they're less confident than they were when Elon company valuations looked immune to gravity.
Yep spacex can afford to have a declining value of equity… its talent who are mostly paid with stock will leave for its competitors - increasing the probability of bankruptcy. Putting the company in a tail spin heading for default.
So how are the bond holders gonna get paid in the event that happens? Oh in bankruptcy court? Lmao.
Raising equity is not a loophole either - ebit and ebitda drive measures of default risk.
Most of you on here should never ever talk about finance. It’s like you learned how to discount a cash flow and have it all figured out lololol
Two things:
- You can cheer for his companies and technologies but against these financial maneuverings because they risk genuine harm & setback to the industry
- I stopped asking for people to put politics aside in support of these companies when I realized Elon couldn't put politics aside to support these companies.- we don’t believe in startups (low quality scams)
- we don’t believe in technology. (It’s surveillance and distraction).
- we don’t believe in markets (regulate the RAM)
- we don’t believe in agency (unruly rule breakers)
And honestly we’ve seen a lot of events that strengthen those positions. Some of it is age as well. I’m just interested to see what comes next with so little faith in the industry.
I don’t see very many articles interested in new startups. It’s usually about them failing. I often use market explanations in my comments and these are not received favorably.
Now, I'm a computer guy, love tech and have nothing against datacenters. But the recent anti-datacenter sentiment is not some luddite reaction. Data-centers cause serious social changes in property prices, electricity costs, water waste etc. Sure, there is a need for more datacenters and more compute, but lets not diminish the very real worries by the people or communities affected.
And contrary to what many of these hyper-scalers and the senators/politicians they lobby want to make you believe, datacenters do not bring in enough jobs to make it worth it for many of these communities.
Once a datacenter is built, minimum staff is required. And this is now very obvious since many of these companies are now also preaching for datacenters in space.
A quiet, average-sized warehouse-like building in an industrial area with a big power substation next to it often didn't bother a lot of people. A giant monster of a building being built in what was previously people's backyards with howling on-site power generation that got installed without any kind of air quality reviews because they're allegedly "temporary" and starts sucking the groudwater dry is a whole different story.
This is a datacenter: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pzSsUHXPaUuLGaDa9 I doubt many people even know its a datacenter. Its pretty much any other office building.
This is also a datacenter. I imagine just about everyone living nearby knows its a datacenter. https://maps.app.goo.gl/wR4NgcWQVhJAy5Gy6
Elon actively interfered with US elections, and has done untold damage through his DOGE stunt. He uses his vast wealth in ways that have done real damage to the US, the US economy and in support of people who are dismantling American rights.
The boogeyman of "China/Asia" won't make me "support" a man who uses his money to make America worse. I do not support his actions and I do no wish to fund them regardless of the technology they create.