Clarity didn't work, trying mysterianism (2012)
59 points
10 hours ago
| 8 comments
| gwern.net
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ShinyLeftPad
48 minutes ago
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> The wearer lives an abnormally successful life

as soon as most people wear it "abnormally" becomes "normally".

logically the rare enlightened who refuse to wear it and instead keep their own [spoiler] become abnormal unsuccessful failures, not the other way around.

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wdaher
46 minutes ago
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I’ve also seen this called “The Whispering Earring”, and have seen it hosted here (this version slightly more readable)

https://croissanthology.com/earring

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avaer
4 hours ago
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One of the more compelling (and scary) stories about how AI takes over the world. If you liked this, also check our Pluribus.
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ccapitalK
29 minutes ago
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I wonder if there is a self consistent way to desire having your mind digitally uploaded into a computer, while detesting the idea of listening to the commands of the earring (and conditioning it to have all of my unconcious thoughts and desires). I guess I just discovered a bit of cognitive dissonance I didn't know I had.
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keeda
3 hours ago
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I suppose the earring never whispered anything about putting glue on pizza?
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CamperBob2
2 hours ago
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I don't get it. First, how is it "better for you" to take the earring off, if "the wearer lives an abnormally successful life, usually ending out as a rich and much-beloved pillar of the community with a large and happy family?"

Second, apparently some people do choose to take the earring off at some point, because the story refers to "the testimony of all living wearers." So it does not, in fact, appear to usurp, subvert or replace the wearer's free will.

Not seeing the problem here.

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Nevermark
1 hour ago
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How would you feel with a procedure in which your brain was scooped out like ice cream from a bowl, and replaced with circuits that would do a better job of your life for you?

> So it does not, in fact, appear to usurp, subvert or replace the wearer's free will.

Ok, the ice cream scooping happens slowly. At what point of atrophy, do you think it becomes easier to revert to what is left of it?

You still have free will, in the strictest sense. But you are increasingly dependent, so have lost optionality that no amount of will can replace.

Is your life story about what flows to you? Or about what challenges come to you, that you, yourself meet and overcome?

EDIT: But you are also right - given discipline - the right thing to do is always leverage every piece of good advice we can get. From bot or earring. By always (1) first coming up with our own best plan, so we have a basis to recognize and appreciate the insights in better ideas (2) get the best possible feedback on that plan, the good and the bad, and then (3) with what we learned from that, attempt a better plan, and repeat until getting somewhere better that either initial plan, for all the looping. Then still learn from any failure or success. And do not go down the slippery slope of delegating unimportant questions, like choices of ice cream flavors! This is how I get the most from my AI advisors. To work and train myself faster and harder!

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CamperBob2
48 minutes ago
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How would you feel with a procedure in which your brain was scooped out like ice cream from a bowl, and replaced with circuits that would do a better job of your life for you?

One way to answer that might be to argue the counterfactual. How would I feel if I were born in the state described in the story -- little or no gray matter, but endowed with the promise of a successful, enjoyable life, valued and respected by those around me -- and someone offered me an earring whose advice would give rise to uncertainty, self-doubt, and a constant, nagging awareness of my own ignorance and lost potential?

What incentive would I have to continue wearing that earring?

For that version of the story to make sense, you'd almost have to make it a cursed object that couldn't be removed once equipped.

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Dylan16807
43 minutes ago
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Well in that version you basically don't have the ability to make the decision at all. And it's unclear at that extreme if you're even enjoying things anymore.
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Sharlin
23 minutes ago
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How can you know it’s not the earring giving those testimonies? The story doesn’t say whether they were wearing the earring while being interviewed, but given that wearing it for a long time wastes away your neocortex and turns you into a flesh puppet, I don’t think long-term users are even able to speak on their own anymore.

OTOH people who are still themselves, in the early stages of the takeover, will certainly tell you of their own volition that the earring always seems to be right. Wearing it is presumably highly addictive.

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CamperBob2
6 minutes ago
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The story doesn’t say whether they were wearing the earring while being interviewed

Is there more than one of these earrings? The rest of the story makes it pretty clear that it's a singular artifact. If so, and given that the other wearers certainly weren't dead when being interviewed, the only explanation is that some people just decide it's not for them and take it off. Leaving out the qualification "living wearers" would have left some wiggle room, but that's not what the text says.

It's one of those stories that sounds profound only until you start to ask questions.

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strogonoff
16 minutes ago
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An exclusive choice between maintaining free will and agency vs. achieving some definition of “success” makes for a good story. You’d think the choice would be blindingly obvious, and yet turns out it isn’t (or to some it is blindingly obvious in the opposite direction).
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wavemode
1 hour ago
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It stands to reason that the people who took the earring off were less happy and made worse decisions than the people who kept it on for the rest of their lives.

So then ask yourself: why did they take it off? Pondering the implications of that question is the entire point of this short story.

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mmooss
4 hours ago
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(2012)

Also here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20131230055512/http://squid314.l...

Does anyone know the provenance of this story? One comment says, responding to someone who recommends publishing it,

> The problem is that it's published so he can sell only second rights.

EDIT: The story is tagged (at the top) "fiction, raikoth". Raikoth is the 'constructed civilization' of Scott Alexander, author of Slate Star Codex, et al. And though the post is at gwern.net, I see the author is "Scott".

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lalaithion
4 hours ago
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What do you mean the provenance? It was published on livejournal in 2012, that’s the provenance.
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emmelaich
3 hours ago
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Yep, Scott (squid314) used livejournal before SlateStarCodex, before AstralCodexTen.
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beepbooptheory
3 hours ago
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This came up the other day, can someone help explain this to me? I am not quite sharp enough to understand it. Context:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48911884

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fourthark
3 hours ago
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Seems like a fairly direct parable against AI, suggesting that even if it's right it's better to think for yourself.
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dudisubekti
22 minutes ago
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Eh I think the writer should visit poor countries and live among locals. Mistakes and poor judgements compound, and it leads to horrific living conditions (malnutrition, nonexistent hygiene, quack medicines, short-sighted violence, etc)

In fact developed countries are built on top of these "earrings": it's called math (and by extension science in general). If the math is right, it's always right, and it has spared their lucky citizens a LOT of needless misery and wheel-reinvention.

"Thinking for yourself" is overrated if you don't have good framework. See antivaxxers and their "research"

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beepbooptheory
3 hours ago
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You mean like LLM AI? Seems a little too early for that no?

Either way, what is it right about? In your mind?

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margalabargala
2 hours ago
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It's not subtle, it's clearly saying "if you outsource your thinking to something else, your mind will wither".

People complaining about this have a long and storied history, this is the same as Plato complaining philosophers were ruining their minds by writing things down to remember them.

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beepbooptheory
2 hours ago
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This is not what Plato thought, this is not even what Plato wrote that Socrates thought. You are referring to the Phaedrus. You should read it! Its much better than this story, trust me.

But either way, people's minds do not wither in this story, it explicitly works out fine for them?

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Dylan16807
1 hour ago
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> But either way, people's minds do not wither in this story, it explicitly works out fine for them?

Huh?

"when the corpses of the wearers were being prepared for burial, it was noted that their brains were curiously deformed: the neocortexes had wasted away, and the bulk of their mass was an abnormally hypertrophied mid- and lower-brain, especially the parts associated with reflexive action"

You could infer their minds fading away even without that paragraph, but it's very explicit.

Also you have another comment where you insist nobody has explained what the story is arguing when multiple people told you what the story is arguing, what the heck.

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beepbooptheory
49 minutes ago
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OK, so there is a magical device that provides you with deep contentment no matter what. But then, when you die and they cut your head open, the physical, biological brain has shrunk. And that's bad. Is that right? Is this what it's about?

Is the story actually arguing something? I have just been literally asking what it even presumes itself to be about. Is it the gloss above?

If it's about agency, I don't get it. It seems silly/facile to assert the "right" decision is the thing that matters without making the thing so magic it doesn't even make sense. Does agency stop you from getting hit by a runaway bus? Help you from being persecuted for arbitrary reasons? The story tells us they all, unfailingly, live "abnormally successful" lives. That's all supposed to be because of their (non) agency because of the earring device?

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Dylan16807
36 minutes ago
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Is it actually contentment or are you fading away so much you cease to exist?

The story is not about physical brain changes, no. It's about losing yourself. It's arguing that to exist is to make decisions. Following the device too much leads to a life that looks successful from the outside but inside no longer has a person enjoying the success, just a puppet.

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Sharlin
21 minutes ago
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This is from 2012, so no LLM AI in particular, just AGI/strong AI in general.
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paytonjjones
3 hours ago
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Based on your comments I think you do understand it but are taking it too seriously / too literally.

Consider the title: Scott Alexander and others have written more clear, philosophically robust versions of a similar argument ("you shouldn't trade your agency for good outcomes").

But that's not the point here. This is the artsy version that's supposed to make you feel the argument.

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