We'll buy back your Typewriter for Uncle Sam
130 points
2 months ago
| 5 comments
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jdietrich
2 months ago
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This advertisement was published shortly before Smith-Corona started production of 1903A3 rifles.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-smith-corona-mo...

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sandworm101
2 months ago
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The popular image of WWII is of the late-war technology. We have forgotten that when the US entered the war it did so with gun tech that was already forty years old, tech that was regarded as oldschool during the previous war.
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somat
2 months ago
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Untrue. The US entered the war with what is wildly regarded as the best rifle of the war.

The Rifle M1 designed by John Garand was adopted as the standard service rifle in 1936. and on their entry into the conflict the US was the only belligerent that issued a self loading rifle to the general troop. well, except for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, they always seem the be last in line to get new toys and were still using the 1903 springfield as the standard service rifle.

Unless you are talking about guns in the strict military sense(artillery) in which case I have no idea how advanced US artillery was at the start of the war.

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CapitalistCartr
2 months ago
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You are leaving out a major part. Such as that there were not nearly enough. Adopting a "new & shiny" is a long way from all the troops actually having it. My father was in WWII; he was drilling with 2x4s, because they didn't have rifles. The entire division only had two Sherman tanks. A lot of our overwhelming production was 1943 and later.
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throwaway48476
2 months ago
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This understates civilian firearms development that was cutting edge. Notably the Thompson gun and BAR. Of course the US then kneecapped the industry with the NFA. The 1911, while being an old design lasted for many more decades as well.
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mhalle
2 months ago
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hotspot_one
2 months ago
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1911 is still a great design. yeah, single-action trigger, but there are draw techniques which rack the slide and the gun is designed to enable these-- and double-action requires a heavier first trigger pull, which can throw your aim off both for the first shot (heavy pull) and second shot (massively easier pull but you are expecting heavy).

Yeah, small magazine compared to 9mm, but that's because police tactics have changed; the 1911 was not designed for "fire and maneuver" tactics. 1911 is more "one shot stop", something which 9mm doesn't do reliably.

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dmoy
2 months ago
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I agree somewhat generally, but some minor things:

> yeah, single-action trigger, but there are draw techniques which rack the slide and the gun is designed to enable these

The 1911 is sorta designed to be carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked, relying on the grip safety and thumb safety.

But militaries often didn't (still don't sometimes?) have people outside of MP carry pistols that way, because the pistol is a last resort backup. The accident rate from stupid during normal times outweighs the benefit of a fractionally faster draw in the rare case of use.

Which brings to the second point:

> 1911 is more "one shot stop", something which 9mm doesn't do reliably.

That was the working theory for many decades (like.... 8-9 decades). That's been thoroughly disproved by modern science and ballistics. Size of pistol bullet doesn't really do anything (compared to other pistol calibers that can penetrate far enough), but increased accuracy does work much better. This is especially true in a military context where the rifle is designed around one shot stop (mostly due to 3-4x faster velocities).

Law enforcement agencies will still make bad decisions around this for political / optical reasons. See e.g. the FBI's terrible choice of going to 10mm, backing off to 40s&w, and then finally coming around to 9mm

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bombcar
2 months ago
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Pistols are horrible weapons, and anyone who HAS to use guns will do anything they can to avoid having to rely on a pistol.

You use a pistol because you need it to be small, unobtrusive, or it's your last option.

A rifle or a shotgun is almost always better than a pistol if you don't have the size constraints (which are sometimes optics - a police office with a holstered gun looks way less threatening than one with a rifle).

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youainti
2 months ago
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45ACP has isn't much more better than 9mm (or even .380acp) at one shot stop.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-h...

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qball
2 months ago
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>something which 9mm doesn't do reliably

Neither does .45, of course. Handguns (well, 9mm anyway) dispense what is functionally a single pellet of buckshot- the pellets (while still potentially lethal) aren't that powerful on their own, which is why the shotgun launches 8 of them at a time.

>but there are draw techniques which rack the slide and the gun is designed to enable these

The 1911 was designed back when pistol doctrine was "carry with chamber empty" and "fire one-handed", despite that not being particularly conducive to accuracy. Pistols are a badge of rank more than anything else; the overwhelming majority of military casualties caused by them are same-side (used on deserters, etc.).

>small magazine compared to 9mm

Not really. Remember that until the '80s, the concept of a "double-stack" handgun was limited to the Hi-Power; every other 9mm handgun had a capacity of 7-8 rounds, just like the 1911. And now you know why revolvers lasted so long in service- because not only were you not giving up capacity in those days, but you had a consistent and safe (though heavy) trigger pull, and you could use hollow-point ammunition without risk of a jam (which 1911s are just flat out unreliable with).

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vundercind
2 months ago
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A notable exception is the B-17, in use before the US entered the war. It’s the symbol of the US strategic bombing effort in pop culture, with a bunch of films centering around it. The B-29 only seems to get any notice because of the Enola Gay, and the B-24 Liberator is practically invisible in culture despite its large role.

I think it’s because the B-17 raids were so dramatic. Airspace still heavily contested, the Allies still figuring out how to use air power.

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Spooky23
2 months ago
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The B-17 was a big marketing and propaganda coup.

It was pretty much obsolete at the beginning of the war. The “Flying Fortress” moniker, the (mostly bullshit) notion that the bomber would always get through and defend itself, the powerful imagery of battered bombers coming home, and the terrible sacrifices made by the crews made it a legendary symbol.

The B-24 wasn’t a pretty plane. The B-29 came too late in the war, and was only deployed in the Pacific.

Personally, I find the glorification of the daylight bombing campaigns increasingly gross as I get older. Those men paid a very high price and I wonder if that sacrifice was truly justified.

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bluGill
2 months ago
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Lots of people wonder if it was justified. Since then many historians have examined this and concluded that many of those bombing increased enemy support for the war and so were counter productive. Bombing of munitions factories and other military installations is still useful, but bombing cities like was often done in WWII is not considered a good idea.
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notahacker
2 months ago
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I think the area bombing falls into the category of stuff which on an individual action level was a horrendous waste of life on both sides, but on a strategic level was essential to the Allied victory, because British bombing raids on German cities provoked Hitler into focusing German efforts on bombing British cities, which was considerably less useful to the Germans than the military targets they were hitting before, in the context of Britain desperately trying to avoid the Germans establishing the degree of air superiority that would allow an invasion of the British Isles.

A corollary of this is that the sacrifices made on bombing raids later in the war, including by US forces, were a lot less relevant. US bombing strategy was typically more targeted towards military assets than UK bombing though

(There is of course also the massive can of worms of how necessary the atomic bombs were: obviously unlike other bombings they actually did bring about immediate capitulation, but in the context that parts of Japanese High Command were opening tentative discussions in the full awareness that they were losing the war, and possibility the US might have been able to offer its surprisingly reasonable ultimate terms instead of unconditional surrender)

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dTal
2 months ago
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>obviously [the atomic bombs] actually did bring about immediate capitulation

Not at all obvious:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-stone-kuznick-hi...

(this op-ed is the first thing that popped up on a quick google but it has been covered much more thoroughly elsewhere - the short of it is that having a city bombed to oblivion wasn't actually a terribly novel thing for Japan at this stage of the war, whereas the Soviet invasion of Manchuria was a Big Deal)

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oneshtein
2 months ago
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Tell this to Russians.
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CamperBob2
2 months ago
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Well, Hitler could have told them that, certainly. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about the UK or Ukraine... bombing civilians pisses them off and redoubles their commitment to the fight. It's a waste of munitions, because you'll never kill enough civilians to matter.
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oneshtein
2 months ago
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Currently, it's Russia leveling their own Russian cities with guided bombs.
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hollerith
2 months ago
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>you'll never kill enough civilians to matter.

-- unless you use nukes.

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bluGill
2 months ago
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Even then I question if you can do so. You can level your enemy perhaps, but if the enemy is the US or Russia they have provisions to end the whole world after you level all their cities and so you don't win. If it is anyone else they might not end the world themselves, but there are good odds many countries that otherwise hate each other will join together to destroy you because they don't going nuclear to be an option for the next country. (basic physics and engineering can build a nuclear bomb - it isn't easy, but several countries have proven it can be done and most suspect more would if it was cost effective - but since you can't use them in war it isn't cost effective so they don't)
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hollerith
2 months ago
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No one can "end the whole world" or bring about human extinction using nukes even if that were their explicit goal.
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SAI_Peregrinus
2 months ago
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Industrial civilization can be ended using nukes. Too many interconnected supply chains would fail, including those needed to produce fertilizer for modern agriculture.

Possibly most human and land animal life could be ended if enough ground burst bombs were used to maximize fallout.

Destroying all life is extremely unlikely, e.g. deep-sea hydrothermal vent ecosystems, cave-dwelling life, bacteria, and more will survive even deliberate coordinated attempts by all nations to nuke as much as possible with ground detonations to maximize fallout.

Destroying the Earth (a 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000-tonne ball of mostly iron) is not happening with nukes.

When most people say "end the world" they mean "end modern civilization", not "make the planet Earth cease to be a body in hydrostatic equilibrium in orbit of Sol".

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hollerith
2 months ago
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Nukes cannot be used to end industrial civilization, either.

Nuclear planners have always planned to use many ground bursts: on hardened targets like command bunkers, but also to destroy communications networks. Specifically, a "landing station" where transoceanic cables make landfall or wherever there used to be a 5ESS switch (the locations of which are publicly known) is a great place to hit with a ground burst to destroy much of the nation's non-wireless communications infrastructure. Estimates during the end of the Cold War are that about half of CONUS's area would be covered with lethal levels of fallout from these expected ground bursts. I guess if the Russians and Chinese were deliberately trying to cover as much area as possible with lethal levels of fallout (which they wouldn't because it is not an effective plan) they could cover 70 or 80% -- if they had as many nukes and means to "deliver" them intercontinentally as the Soviets did, which the Russians don't unless they've been hiding them from US inspectors, but I consider it very unlikely that they could've managed that.

And bomb fallout is very different from radioactive contamination from accidents at nuclear power plants: basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes. The method for decontaminating your house is to get up on a ladder and wash down your roof with a garden hose, then wash down all driveways and sidewalks.

So, again, nukes cannot be used to end industrial civilization. Note that this means that if the US ever nukes Russia with everything it has, Russia would bounce back and would again be a military threat (whether that takes 3 years or 15 years I don't know) so it makes little sense to nuke Russia unless the US is going to follow up with a long-term occupation of Russia's ports and maybe some key transportation hubs.

The USSR knew it had no chance to occupy US ports or occupy a substantial portion of US territory: their plan for followup was to grab the rest of the European plain, which includes most of Germany and all of northern France to the border with Spain.

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bluGill
2 months ago
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I think enough people will die that we cannot sustain civialization. It takes a lot of people to get oil from a well to the pump and too many of them will be dead. You can keep things going in degraded form but eventually you can't make replacement parts for the refinery to a level of quality that allows for current output and so you lose trucks and tractors. Steel refineries need some weird subblies that you won't be able to source well enough.

There are many different things that we need that nobody thinks of and all those are disrupted with loss of important people at once.

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aguaviva
2 months ago
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And bomb fallout is very different from the radioactive contamination from accidents at nuclear power plants: basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes. The method for decontaminating your house is to get up on a ladder and wash down your roof with a garden hose, then wash down all driveways and sidewalks.

Assuming they all have enough supplies to shelter in place for 4 weeks. Sure, they do. Oh, and where does all that runoff go?

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hollerith
2 months ago
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Most of the runoff probably ends up far enough away from your house that it doesn't harm you. Again: its very different from power-plant contamination: its radioactivity is diminishing very quickly.

If you were lucky enough that your home was not covered in lethal levels of fallout, then it is likely that all the land within miles of your home is similarly safe, so you can range around looking for water, and most people can survive without eating (or eating only what food they happened to have around at the time of the attack) for a few weeks. It wouldn't be pleasant, of course (and I sure would prefer to be in a fallout shelter pre-stocked with food and water when the attack happens) but the point is that many people would survive even in the countries that were attacked.

There's probably enough food in the US right now (mostly intended to be fed to farm animals, mostly stored on farms) to feed half of the US population. 2 weeks after the attack, it starts to makes sense for altruistically-inclined people (particularly if they have a Geiger counter) to load such food (along with a mill with which to turn it into flour -- also a common item stored on farms) on a truck and take it to where hungry people are. Old people are a good fit for this task: if you are 60 years old, then the prospect of developing cancer in 20 or 30 years is not exactly pleasant, but not particularly scary either.

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aguaviva
2 months ago
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So you can range around looking for water

Which most folks know how to do, of course. And we can be sure that when they encounter other groups of people at their favorite puddle, everyone will get along just fine.

Most people can survive without eating (or eating only what food they happened to have around at the time of the attack) for a few weeks.

And wouldn't be in the least motivated to leave their shelters. Howabout you try it first, and report back to us?

Look, I'm not trying to be cute here. And we agree that it won't end global industry capacity (and even the countries directly affected would eventually spring back, as after WW2). I've also done my time in physics classes, and know about all that neat physics stuff.

But your arguments sound very hand-wavy, and something tells me you're glossing over lots and lots of additional factors, and are basically trying to spin the situation as being far less of a calamity than it actually would be.

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hollerith
2 months ago
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Let's take a step back and recall what I'm arguing against: I never argued or meant to imply that there wouldn't be tremendous suffering and death. I'm only arguing that nuclear war is extremely unlikely to end industrial civilization (though it can sure suppress industrial capacity for a few years and possibly if we get very unlucky for a few decades) and is extremely unlikely cause human extinction.
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vundercind
2 months ago
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How bad it is very much depends on how long it takes to restore meaningful amounts of the power grid. If it’s north of 60 days, forget it, you’re losing 90+% of your population.
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CamperBob2
2 months ago
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basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes

While this may be true enough for 'conventional' nukes, there have been proposals to intentionally salt bombs with elements such as cobalt that can render large areas of territory unfit for habitation for many years.

This isn't fiction or speculation, it's basically what MacArthur wanted to do in Korea.

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bee_rider
2 months ago
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Like the concept of strategic bombing at all (which is pretty… questionable… in terms of effectiveness), or the idea of doing it in daylight specifically?

I thought the one redeeming feature of daylight runs was that they could at least hit some targets, rather than just… hitting cities and towns in general.

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vundercind
2 months ago
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Especially in the early war, when navigation and targeting tech was worse, yeah, accuracy was a major concern.

I think the benefits of night fighting were also more mixed than one might think, due to the increase of air accidents—the accident rate in the war was so high that it was responsible for the overwhelming majority of lost airframes, not enemy fire. If you need more missions to achieve the same effect on a target (because accuracy is worse) and your crash rate goes up because flying at night (enemy activities aside) is riskier than during the day, I could see that making it less of an absolute win even before considering increased collateral damage (which, at least at times, they do seem to have genuinely preferred to minimize)

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mschuster91
2 months ago
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> Personally, I find the glorification of the daylight bombing campaigns increasingly gross as I get older. Those men paid a very high price and I wonder if that sacrifice was truly justified.

German here. Given what they fought against, yes it was. Visit any of the too many concentration camp sites across Europe... it's definitely worth the time.

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vundercind
2 months ago
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I think the reference may have been to the efficacy of the effort at ending the war sooner, which is a topic of some debate I believe. You watch something like 12 O’Clock High and wonder whether this “maximum effort” they were seeking to find (beyond which even the most dedicated and capable crewmen break down) was… worth it.

The deliberate terror bombings that constituted some part of the effort, especially in the mid and late years, were also and separately awful, though the ethics somewhat muddied by the targeting of civilians having undergone a tit-for-tat ratcheting up early in the war, and yeah, the whole death camps thing. But there too the question of whether those deaths served any useful purpose, as far as ending the war sooner or reducing its scope, makes the whole thing even sadder.

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mschuster91
2 months ago
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> But there too the question of whether those deaths served any useful purpose, as far as ending the war sooner or reducing its scope, makes the whole thing even sadder.

Well, given that an utter majority were supportive of the Nazi regime up until and even after the war ended... I'd say it was necessary, if only to set an example for any future offender just how brutal the crackdown will be.

Unfortunately, the world failed to keep the reminder up on "genocide = bad and WILL lead to a brutal response" - the response towards Serbia in the 90s, Russia after 2014 or Syria was way too lackluster IMHO.

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Spooky23
2 months ago
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I can accept that total warfare where the population was the target as a “thing” in that type of conflict. A dirty business, but reality.

The daylight raid aspect, however, seems to me to be more grounded in ego and dogma than military utility. I don’t think avoidance of civilian casualties was a deciding factor. Those airmen were sent into a meat-grinder.

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mschuster91
2 months ago
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> The daylight raid aspect, however, seems to me to be more grounded in ego and dogma than military utility. I don’t think avoidance of civilian casualties was a deciding factor. Those airmen were sent into a meat-grinder.

They were, but also remember that back in 1945 there was no such thing as GPS or any kind of more precise navigation than a compass, a sextant and star charts. It was very easy to get lost at night or to hit some mountain, particularly as Germans were pretty strict in enforcing Verdunkelung [1].

Flying during daytime was obviously more risky because AA defense can see you, but it was also less risky because navigation was easier - and more precise, because you could actually see where you were.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdunkelung_(Luftschutz)

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sneed_chucker
2 months ago
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> Given what they fought against

Mass murder of civilians isn't morally acceptable no matter what the "other side" is doing.

Firebombing a kindergarten in the Rheinland doesn't do anything to help someone in an extermination camp in occupied Poland.

Post war analysis of allied strategic bombing indicates that it did not have a large impact on the war effort and probably wasn't worth the high rate of loss of the expensive airframes and crews.

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hollerith
2 months ago
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>Post war analysis of allied strategic bombing indicates that it did not have a large impact on the war effort

The bombing didn't cause the German people to overthrow their government like Allied leaders hoped it would, but it did significantly impact the war IMHO by decreasing German production of essential materials like refined oil products, particularly lubricants, ball bearings, airframes and probably other materials.

Even if no factories had been hit, just the fact that the Germans underwent the expense and inefficiencies of distributing manufacturing among many small factories, some underground and some in caves (which the Germans did in fact do) would still have significantly decreased German production.

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vundercind
2 months ago
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One of those cold-calculus-of-war things is that if you’re out-producing the enemy by (say) 5x, you can suffer 4:1 costs on an operation and still be “winning” in terms of causing more harm to their war effort than to yours. That is, you can spend four abstract units of war-fighting-capability to destroy one unit of theirs, and that’s still a net-loss for them. If you don’t have more effective ways to spend that (abstract) productivity, it may still be in your best interest to use it that way.

It can make evaluating things like this tricky. So a raid that lost dozens of bombers and cost weeks in training time only put some part of their industry out of action for a couple weeks and diverted a week or so of other factory productivity for the rebuild and retooling effort—that looks bad, but could still actually be a deal you should take every time under certain circumstances.

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oneshtein
2 months ago
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MAD is accepted strategy of USA and other nuclear countries.
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tivert
2 months ago
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> It was pretty much obsolete at the beginning of the war.

In what way was it obsolete? Can you go into more detail?

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cafard
2 months ago
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What about the Garand M-1?
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initramfs
2 months ago
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sevensor
2 months ago
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That was a good read, thanks for posting! I suspect in 50 years it will become much clearer what the 50 year computer is. The leading edge still moves at a blistering rate, but computing devices are so widespread now that eddies full of slower moving technology are inevitable. I’m not sure the 50 year computer will happen on purpose, either. Just as likely, a community forms around some gadget that was made for another purpose, and in its afterlife it turns out to have been unusually well designed. Consider the surviving typewriters. Typewriters used to break down all the time. We had typewriter repairmen. The typewriters that remain were lucky: well designed, well maintained, well kept. A lot of bad typewriters are rusting in landfills.
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initramfs
2 months ago
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I think a properly modular system, similar to the ATX computer case, would be a practical 50 year computer, even if no single part lasts that long.

The ATX motherboard form factor was developed in 1995 by Intel. Today motherboards are still made by AMD and Intel that meet that size. Previous attempts to make a modular cell phone by Google's Project Ara ended in 2017.

https://hackaday.io/project/177716-the-femtotx-motherboard-s... If a system reuses even 10%, that still reduces the waste that goes into manufacturing a new replacement, such as a system fan or chassis.

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pseingatl
2 months ago
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Orders had to be typed. In 1943 or 1944 a Liberty ship carrying only typewriters went down in the English channel.
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kgeist
2 months ago
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>What's fascinating is that Smith-Corona is still in existence today. Wikipedia provides a great overview of how they have managed to adapt through several millennia of innovation

Did they mean "decades"? (English is not my native language)

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RockRobotRock
2 months ago
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They meant centuries.
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pncnmnp
2 months ago
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Thanks, my mistake. I’ve corrected it. In my initial draft, I wanted to convey a sense of "enduring innovation" so I used that term symbolically as a placeholder. It went right past me during the final edits.
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ZiiS
2 months ago
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I know the article is new; but given the title is straight from the Ad it would be clearer suffixed (1942).
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